Rant Biometric information on Dutch ID card

[tblaxland]

Your identity is who you are, not what documents you carry on yourself. The reason I'm kinda positive about biometric info is that if you have papers with no identifying information the question is if you have papers or not, not if you are the person those papers represent.

I agree, but central storage is not a requirement for such positive identification. Papers/credentials/card carrying the identifying information (effectively creating an affirmative link between you and the credential) are sufficient.

Also if the system is set up correctly actually having the document on yourself isn't important; you could use your physical biometrics to identify yourself alone.

That implies central storage, which I oppose since it creates an opening for abuse of the information (intentional or otherwise). Personally, I am prepared to live with inconvenience of carrying a credential.

 

[Andy44]

Call me a radical, but I hold I have a right to exist and go about my daily business without some form of papers or ID.

Who's more paranoid?

The person who just wants to be left alone and go about his business without being watched and catalogued, and who believes government should work for him instead of lord over him? Who wants to treat others and be treated with dignity until he proves himself unworthy of it?

Or the person who is so scared of crime and terrorists and his own next-door neighbors that he brays like a donkey for his rulers to tag everyone like so many head of cattle waiting to be driven to the slaughterhouse?

 

[tblaxland]

I feel that I fall somewhere between your two scenarios. I recognise that if I want the government to work for me, they can do so more efficiently if they have handy some subset of my personal information. The work I require of my government doesn't need everyone to be tagged, and they don't require a central database of the general populace's fingerprints either. So, not only does withholding some personal information from the government help prevent it being abused (the reason I gave above), it also helps prevent the government from deciding of its own accord that there is some "extra" work that I would like done for me. Governments are inclined to expand their scope enough already without me giving them additional information to use.

 

[dansteph]

But it certainly makes their job much easier.

Tyranic government never missed peoples to kill but efficient way to kill or jail them.

Biometric ID card don't add that much to classic ID with photo we have since dozen years. A nationalist parti don't need absolute proof to jail peoples, justice is not their concern. In contrary fair justice need such details because you can't condamn without solid proof, fingerprint or DNA.

Now the danger is much more in paiment method, phones, and ... internet. As tyran I would first look on internet or listen phone about peoples opinion, then would look about paiements made or phone call to track a guy, once catched biometric ID would not do any difference with a classic pass appart in rare case.

In brief the real danger for our liberty is much more hiden and pernicious than the biometric pass wich is only an amelioration of what existed during last era. Phone in particularity extend to all-in-one communication center, soon you'll be even able to pay with it. The problem is it work both sense, you look the world but it keep an eyes on you also. Opinion, location, paiements. All your private life tracked permanently. With the total disparition of real money (logical evolution) you would not be able to even take a bus bribe someone and hide in such world.

Best

Dan

 

[Moonwalker]

Call me a radical, but I hold I have a right to exist and go about my daily business without some form of papers or ID.

It depends. In Austria and Switzerland you have that right for example. In Germany we do have ID requirement, but we don't have to carry it along. But if you are German and even prefer to live in the woodland, nobody really forces you to get an ID.

I personally don't have a problem with ID requirement. I chose to live in this system, I contribute and I profit. With every rights, there are also duties and responsibilities. But, oh, wait! My ID is expeired since 2005 I remember right now. Maybe I should get a new one finally :lol:

 

[dansteph]

I chose to live in this system, I contribute and I profit. With every rights, there are also duties and responsibilities. But, oh, wait! My ID is expeired since 2005 I remember right now. Maybe I should get a new one finally :lol:

+1 & :lol:

Dan

 

[cjp]

That's why I left; I honestly think that if the Tories don't make major changes when they win the election next year then there's likely to be a civil war in the next decade or so. And since the Tories can't make major changes without leaving the EU, optimism is not easy to come by.

So, according to your profile, you went to Canada. Do you like it?

Biometric ID card don't add that much to classic ID with photo we have since dozen years. A nationalist parti don't need absolute proof to jail peoples, justice is not their concern. In contrary fair justice need such details because you can't condamn without solid proof, fingerprint or DNA.

Now the danger is much more in paiment method, phones, and ... internet. As tyran I would first look on internet or listen phone about peoples opinion, then would look about paiements made or phone call to track a guy, once catched biometric ID would not do any difference with a classic pass appart in rare case.

In brief the real danger for our liberty is much more hiden and pernicious than the biometric pass wich is only an amelioration of what existed during last era. Phone in particularity extend to all-in-one communication center, soon you'll be even able to pay with it. The problem is it work both sense, you look the world but it keep an eyes on you also. Opinion, location, paiements. All your private life tracked permanently. With the total disparition of real money (logical evolution) you would not be able to even take a bus bribe someone and hide in such world.

True, the data gathering is the most dangerous. But all that data is useless to them if it isn't linked to some identity. And biometrics links that identity registration to your body. Escaping from your identity registration may be very hard, but escaping from your body is impossible, if you don't consider suicide an option.

I found an interesting page, comparing some countries:
http://www.privacyinternational.org/article.shtml?cmd[347]=x-347-559597&als[theme]=National%20ID%20Cards

I don't know much about the reliability of this organization, but the (2007) data about the Netherlands is accurate, so I assume it's also mostly true for other countries.

If the bad score of the US is surprising to the US members of this forum: I think this has partially something to do with its border control and its spying on other countries' data streams.

The interesting thing about this map is that the scores of some countries are really different from my previous feeling. This may be partially due to different priorities and weighings, but more interesting, the text below discloses loads of things I didn't know yet about other countries.

Greece is on top??

 

[dansteph]

True, the data gathering is the most dangerous. But all that data is useless to them if it isn't linked to some identity.

Well, not necessary, dictature want to find the source where the data come from, name age or ADN will not in most case help to find it. (if he's not idiot)

Now phones relay, electronic paiements and connection point (internet etc) does. (cameras are not very efficient without automation)

With internet and phones not only they can check what is said but they have also the exact location where it come from in real time if not the exact guy. (Dictature's first move is to take control of communications)

Now some peoples fear biometric pass but most of them will run to buy the latest communication device that will spread their opinion and location in real time.

I see it as a bigger danger because peoples would always refuse a pass that send their location for example. But no one fear communication device, almost 80% peoples use one yet and it may become an obligation in the future because you would not be able to make a paiement, take a bus have a work or access to informations without it. It would be so practicall that's it's a logical evolution and what want peoples.

If you are concerned about privacy find a country without electricity more than with biometric pass or not

Cheers

Dan

 

[tblaxland]

If you are concerned about privacy find a country without electricity more than with biometric pass or not

Alternatively, find a country where there are so few people that everyone knows you (and hopefully you become friends ), negating the need for ID passes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micronation. Hutt River sounds nice: http://www.principality-hutt-river.com/

 

[Artlav]

I found an interesting page, comparing some countries:

I wonder how they managed to put Russia near the bottom. It seems to me, we have more of a goverment and people living in separate planes of existence problem, than privacy problems.
The laws require much from the people, but few cares about laws.
For example, see this photo: http://orbides.1gb.ru/img/imag0037.jpg
That's the space above a subway train door, with plain-text ad's of fake documents manufacturers (passports, registrations, driver licenses, sick lists, insurance cards, free delivery included).
So, you can do whatever you want here, provided that it's not a business involving too much money.

 

[Andy44]

Here's an interesting article about the era of Film Noir, and how so many films were based upon the ease with which one could slip into anonymity only a few decades ago.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/tucker/tucker164.html

On a side note, and because the author mentions it in his article: If you ever watch the Maltese Falcon and look at how Humphrey Bogart's character talks to the San Francisco police it's amazing to think people actually believed you could talk to cops like that and not get the crap beat out of you. Times have certainly changed, no movie-goer would buy a scene like that today.

 

[cjp]

I wonder how they managed to put Russia near the bottom.

They wrote it down here:
http://www.privacyinternational.org/article.shtml?cmd[347]=x-347-559497

I think the behavior and desires of the government is not the only factor. Behavior of citizens and the general amount of chaos in society is at least as important.

In the Netherlands, there's almost no chaos in society. Everybody usually just sticks to the rules, for their own convenience. This gives authorities great power, because the few who don't follow the rules can easily be picked out.

So, maybe you're right and they're wrong. But if you're interested, please read the article and comment on it.

 

[Urwumpe]

In Germany chaos is created by following the rules until it hurts...

 

[cjp]

In Germany chaos is created by following the rules until it hurts...

Can you explain that?

 

[Urwumpe]

Can you explain that?

I need to explain that? I thought people know that already about Germans and their love of rules. :lol:

 

[cjp]

I need to explain that? I thought people know that already about Germans and their love of rules. :lol:

True, but how create chaos from rules?

 

[Artlav]

True, but how create chaos from rules?

Isn't that obvious?

 

[Urwumpe]

True, but how create chaos from rules?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory

 

[cjp]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory

Doh. Stupid question from me.

...Until it hurts.

right...

 

[replicant]

I have to agree with Andy44 on this one. I cling to the idea of existence without reference to or dependency upon being tagged and catalogued if I so choose. While I think rights are technically a man made illusion, I still think it's my right to not interact with the global borg collective if I don't want to. Perhaps I am also an old anti-social throwback, but I remember the words of Good ol' Mr. Spock : "Computers make excellent and efficient servants, but I have no desire to serve them."