Request Artemis landers

4throck

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Large image of the Moon Starship:
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Things I noticed:
  • a single circle of landing/RCS thrusters just below the solar panels; no further RCS locations
  • huge docking port at the top;
  • platform that goes down to the surface; the platform seems to be the cargo bay door itself;
  • a circular airlock (?) inside the cargo bay;
  • the huge cargo bay door

Great concept on my opinion. The cargo bay is very interesting.
 

barrygolden

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Not really to surprising. Funding is a problem but this is the only fully reusable lander. there again no bucks no Buck Rodgers. The Apollo guys figured out that multiple launches would not work. Say goodbye to gateway as well . I like the Dynetics lander but they never explained how to replace the drop tanks and cargo. gattis has done an MPCV that could have been configured to deliver that stuff but would have to use a different SM to carry the new tanks up.

Well looking forward to seeing a new addon
 

francisdrake

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0234.jpg

Will try to update the Mooship according to the new picture.

Question: Is this a one way mission? From the published papers it looks like:
Unmanned launch, refueling in Earth orbit, autonomous flight to Lunar orbit.
The crew follows in an Orion capsule, docks in Lunar orbit, changes over to the lander.
Landing, surface stay, launch, docking to the Orion, the crew departures.
And then? Discard the lander, or re-use? Refuel in lunar orbit (this would take an enormous amount of tankers)?, Return to Earth orbit for re-fuelling? Anybody has an idea what is planned.?
 

Gargantua2024

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No I don't think the Lunar Starship is expendable...though I'm curious on how they are going to pull off the refueling. Go back to LEO, and once full tank again wait in lunar orbit/Gateway?
 

cosmonaut2040

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Question: Is this a one way mission? From the published papers it looks like:
Unmanned launch, refueling in Earth orbit, autonomous flight to Lunar orbit.
The crew follows in an Orion capsule, docks in Lunar orbit, changes over to the lander.
Landing, surface stay, launch, docking to the Orion, the crew departures.
And then? Discard the lander, or re-use? Refuel in lunar orbit (this would take an enormous amount of tankers)?, Return to Earth orbit for re-fuelling? Anybody has an idea what is planned.?

So I listened to the recording of the press conference, and yes, this first contract only covers a single crewed landing (2 crew) with return to Orion in NHRO, and also one unmanned demonstration landing (return not required) beforehand. NASA is buying one unmanned and one manned Starship lander, and have no plans yet to reuse them. They will decide on the sustainable long-term plan later, and it will be a separate contract for which other companies will be able to compete again.

In my opinion SpaceX surely must have some concept ideas on reusing those landers, but they didn't say anything about it yet.

By the way, for a second landing they will not need to refuel it completely (no need for TLI and LOI fuel), so that would presumably somewhat reduce the amount of tankers needed in lunar orbit.
 

francisdrake

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So I listened to the recording of the press conference, and yes, this first contract only covers a single crewed landing

Thanks for listening in! I was supposing that, as the NASA paper refers to future options, but is not specific on that.
Attached here is an update of the Moonship-addon (-03), roughly representing the current picture.
Still have to work on the fancy new landing legs.
 

Attachments

  • Moonship-03.zip
    1.1 MB · Views: 17

gattispilot

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So much for the Dynethics HLS:(. This is the problem with making addon of future craft. They either change or scrap them. I guess when ever UMMU for 2016 gets built we can explore,.....
 

ChrisRowland

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I think that the first SpaceX HLS will launch to LEO using a SH booster, then top up with enough fuel to get to the Lunar Gateway NRHO orbit, land, and take off to the NRHO.

Then enough SH tankers will launch and refuel in LEO to get a full one to the NRHO where it will put enough fuel in the HLS for it to land and take off. It might be able to do this multiple times. Once the tanker needs refilling it returns to earth using aerobrake to LEO or maybe landing. Sending a single full tanker from LEO will be more efficient than sending multiple almost empty ones all the way to the Moon.

There's no need for the HLS to return to Earth and it could either end up as part of the Lunar Gateway or remain on the Moon as part of a Moon base. It can't aerobrake so a return will be expensive.

One thought is that if there is ice in the shadowed areas on the Moon it may also be cold enough for solid CO2 and that could be used to manufacture methane and LOX fuel. I know that LH2 is favoured by NASA but it will be a lot easier to liquify and store CH4 compared to LH2, just putting it in the shade may be enough. Then you land empty and refuel on the surface. The main resource on the Moon could be fuel, it will be much less expensive to get it into space from there than from the earth.

Chris
 

Gargantua2024

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Then enough SH tankers will launch and refuel in LEO to get a full one to the NRHO where it will put enough fuel in the HLS for it to land and take off.
Sending a full-tank Tanker to NRHO is indeed a brilliant idea! I hope NASA and SpaceX also have this in mind for future missions cause it's quite a bummer when they discard the Starship HLS after it has done its job during Artemis 3, whenever year it occurs
 

gattispilot

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I saw in video from earlier version. The elevator lower an rover.
 

kuddel

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I really loved the look and concept of Dynethics HLS, but yeah I can see how hard it is to keep several ideas with so few dollars to spend. :(
 

cosmonaut2040

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Typically I'm not one to share my opinions on the internet, but I feel the need to express my thoughts on this historical moment with fellow space enthusiasts here in this community.

I think NASA couldn't have made a better choice. I don't share the nostalgia for Dynetic's design. Yes, it would have been perhaps better if two lander designs were developed instead of just one, but both Dynetic's and Blue Origins' landers seem so insignificant compared to the capabilities of the Starship that I won't miss them at all. Even if they were actually realised, they would become only faint footnotes in history next to the incredible Starship.

Dynetic's design would have been really cool in 1980's, would feel right at home with STS-based architecture (in fact similar designs were proposed by NASA back then). Blue Origin's design is a throwback to 1970's, feels like a slightly updated Apollo. We are living in the 21st century, and I'm really glad that NASA chose the 21st century option.
 

Urwumpe

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The key here is that SpaceX is actively developing Starship on their own, regardless of Artemis.
NASA is just paying for the lunar variant - simpler and with lower risk than what they are currently testing!

And a lot of the test campaign was also planned to be done regardless of Artemis for their Dear Moon mission, so now NASA pays a small part of this show as well....
 
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