Are spirits a different life form?

[GregBurch]

... all of which would be quaint nonsense that fills the heads of those without the energy or mental horsepower to think critically about the world; except that there are many people who receive orders to oppress and kill people from imaginary supernatural beings -- and questioning the sanity of even believing in such nonsense is considered to be "rude" and "disrespectful."

 

[darthsithvalek]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-death_experience

 

[Moonwalker]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-death_experience

I didn't read the article. But as far as I know worldwide only 30% of people who were dead for a very few minutes (which by far is not really dead) "claim" to have had a near-death experience. Such experiences depend on the culture and so the imaginations of what might happen after death.

I think such experiences are delusions and a remaining activity of the brain which doesn't stop to work immediately when your heartbeat stops. For a person which is dead really for several hours you won't get any sign of life again. That's what we call death

 

[Kyle]

Ever hear of that guy Don Piper? He was in a horrid car wreck, and was called dead at the scene, He wen't to heaven for 90 minutes, before he came back. And he said Heaven was beautiful, he even made a book about it.

 

[Urwumpe]

I have a near death experience everyday I drive over the Autobahn 2. It is just a matter of time until it will be a death experience.

No driving skills in the world can help you, when a car on the other direction of the autobahn rams the dividing barrier and makes a 15 kg metal piece fly against your head with about 300 km/h impact speed. And that is just the most sophisticated way to die there.

The usual death is getting rammed by a truck driver who just passed out because he was driving for 10 hours without pause.

 

[ar81]

When I was a kid I had a chance to partially read some books from Helena Petrona Blavatsky and it seemed great as a description of a whole new realm of beings and entities. I came to think about the possibility of those beings being real, without believing in superstitions. Could they exist in real life?

I almost died in 2000, so I started to ask myself about what happens after you are gone. Is this body everything that exists? Or is this just like a first stage of life and the real source of life is inside the fairings of the last stage?

I wanted to test these ideas here to get new and fresh points of view.

One thing is certain. After you face death, or perspective of death, you wonder what are you going to leave a legacy. It uses to happen to very old people. But it happened to me. And that is one of the most powerful reasons why I make addons for free.

1. Some things exist that I can't see with my eyes.
2. I can't see purple monkeys flying out of my as*
3. Some people believe purple monkeys fly out of my as*
4. Therefore purple monkeys fly out of my as*

What's wrong with this reasoning?

I do not see it, therefore it does not exist.
I do not see you, therefore you do not exist.

You don't see me therefore I do not exist.
How do you know that this post is not just an automated response of a hi-tech software pretending to be me?

I do not see dark matter.
I do not see microwaves.
I have not seen Earth from space. How do I know that Earth imagery is not just a fake?
How do we know that Iraq war exists and it isn't just a fake, filmed in Arizona desert?

Therefore, since I haven't seen those, they do not exist.

I have been healed by popular medicine which states the existence of an illness called "pega" that doctors say that it does not exist. The way of healing is consistent with ancient chinese medicine that has existed for centuries. And it works, it exists, I have seen it, for I have been healed that way. Therefore I think that medicine could be just crap, a marketing fabrication to sell medicines, and not real science.

What's wrong with this logic?

 

[bujin]

Ever hear of that guy Don Piper? He was in a horrid car wreck, and was called dead at the scene, He wen't to heaven for 90 minutes, before he came back. And he said Heaven was beautiful, he even made a book about it.

Baptist Minister in "Heaven was beautiful" shocker...

Apart from the length of time he was "dead" for, there's nothing much different in that story than any other reported NDE.

 

[GregBurch]

Ever hear of that guy Don Piper? He was in a horrid car wreck, and was called dead at the scene, He wen't to heaven for 90 minutes, before he came back. And he said Heaven was beautiful, he even made a book about it.

Ever hear of that guy L.Ron Hubbard? He had conversations with space aliens who explained that all people are actually inhabited by the tortured souls of other space aliens.

Ever hear of that guy Joseph Smith? He had an angel appear to him and give him some golden tablets that said that American Indians were the Lost Tribes of Israel and that there were lots of cities inhabited by millions of people that had steel weapons in the New World before Columbus.

Ever hear of that guy Muhhamed? He had an angel appear to him and tell him that he could marry a 9-year old girl, fight wars for loot and murder people who maade fun of him.

Ever hear of that woman Ramtha? She's a Washington state housewife who is inhabited by the spirit of a million-year-old warrior king. She only charges a few thousand bucks to share his wisdom with you.

 

[Urwumpe]

Ever hear of that guy Muhhamed? He had an angel appear to him and tell him that he could marry a 9-year old girl, fight wars for loot and murder people who maade fun of him.

Actually her age was closer to 15, there was an argument about this in another forum once, and there had been some quite interesting evidence that made the popular image of Aisha being 9 or even younger look pretty singular.

Some evidence even supports her being much older - as she was already promised to another man before Mohammad convinced her parents (which leaves a lot of room for interpretations). While the "diplomatic" aspects of a marriage got really often done years before the actual marriage, the actual marriage was not allowed before the girl was around 12 years old (Like in our own Bible says: Not before coming of age... which leaves no room for interpretations, when watching the historic context of what that means)

With that in mind, anybody who wants to marry a 10 year old girl (or younger), like the 60 year old guy from Saudi-Arabia, is really just a old pervert, and a sinner just as much as the parents who allow the deal. And any Iman sealing the marriage as well.

The Koran would be a really great religious book, if people would finally start reading it. Just like the Bible BTW.

 

[Coolhand]

Ever hear of that guy L.Ron Hubbard? He had conversations with space aliens who explained that all people are actually inhabited by the tortured souls of other space aliens.

Ever hear of that guy Joseph Smith? He had an angel appear to him and give him some golden tablets that said that American Indians were the Lost Tribes of Israel and that there were lots of cities inhabited by millions of people that had steel weapons in the New World before Columbus.

Ever hear of that guy Muhhamed? He had an angel appear to him and tell him that he could marry a 9-year old girl, fight wars for loot and murder people who maade fun of him.

Ever hear of that woman Ramtha? She's a Washington state housewife who is inhabited by the spirit of a million-year-old warrior king. She only charges a few thousand bucks to share his wisdom with you.

One very prominent character seems conspicuous by his absence in that list.

 

[bujin]

One very prominent character seems conspicuous by his absence in that list.

Just the one??? :lol:

 

[ar81]

Ever hear of that guy L.Ron Hubbard? He had conversations with space aliens who explained that all people are actually inhabited by the tortured souls of other space aliens.

Ever hear of that guy Joseph Smith? He had an angel appear to him and give him some golden tablets that said that American Indians were the Lost Tribes of Israel and that there were lots of cities inhabited by millions of people that had steel weapons in the New World before Columbus.

Ever hear of that guy Muhhamed? He had an angel appear to him and tell him that he could marry a 9-year old girl, fight wars for loot and murder people who maade fun of him.

Ever hear of that woman Ramtha? She's a Washington state housewife who is inhabited by the spirit of a million-year-old warrior king. She only charges a few thousand bucks to share his wisdom with you.

A glitch in the Matrix? :lol:
I strongly believe that when we talk about spirits and superstitions, this leads inevitably toask "what is real?".

There are scammers among people who talk about spiritual things, but also there are scams in science. Cigar was not harmful, but today we know cigar has killed more people than wars.

 

[Coolhand]

A glitch in the Matrix? :lol:
I strongly believe that when we talk about spirits this leads inevitably toask "what is real?".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_principle

i dunno, i just want a steak to taste like a steak, y'know... :huh:

 

[GregBurch]

Actually her age was closer to 15, there was an argument about this in another forum once, and there had been some quite interesting evidence that made the popular image of Aisha being 9 or even younger look pretty singular.

Some evidence even supports her being much older - as she was already promised to another man before Mohammad convinced her parents (which leaves a lot of room for interpretations). While the "diplomatic" aspects of a marriage got really often done years before the actual marriage, the actual marriage was not allowed before the girl was around 12 years old (Like in our own Bible says: Not before coming of age... which leaves no room for interpretations, when watching the historic context of what that means)

With that in mind, anybody who wants to marry a 10 year old girl (or younger), like the 60 year old guy from Saudi-Arabia, is really just a old pervert, and a sinner just as much as the parents who allow the deal. And any Iman sealing the marriage as well.

The Koran would be a really great religious book, if people would finally start reading it. Just like the Bible BTW.

The scholarhsip denying that Aisha was 9 at the time of the marriage is extremely marginal. Multiple hadithim with provenance as good as any attest to this the standard belief among Muslims that she was, in fact a child. Of course, they could all be BS. And we obviously haven't read the same Koran -- including any of the three different translations I've read cover to cover.

 

[bujin]

There are scammers among people who talk about spiritual things, but also there are scams in science. Cigar was not harmful, but today we know cigar has killed more people than wars.

The difference is that science is self-correcting, whereas spiritualism is often not.

 

[Moonwalker]

Ever hear of that guy Don Piper? He was in a horrid car wreck, and was called dead at the scene, He wen't to heaven for 90 minutes, before he came back. And he said Heaven was beautiful, he even made a book about it.

I heared of lots of people who believe a lot of things and claim to have had some experiences and sightings.

People can tell everything and claim everything they want to. GregBurch already mentioned very good examples (and I have another one: the German singer Nina Hagen http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nina_Hagen). But it's still my choice to believe things or not. And I usually prefer to find evidences, use my rationality, eyes and ears rather than to believe something just because.

 

[Urwumpe]

The scholarhsip denying that Aisha was 9 at the time of the marriage is extremely marginal. Multiple hadithim with provenance as good as any attest to this the standard belief among Muslims that she was, in fact a child. Of course, they could all be BS. And we obviously haven't read the same Koran -- including any of the three different translations I've read cover to cover.

Of course. And I for myself, have decided to rely on Shia theology when arguing about the traditions of Islam, because it is the closest you can currently get to a scientific approach to the historic background. As Shia theology does not see all Hadiths (Oral reports about Mohammads life and teaching, sort of similar to the christian evangelium) equally holy, they researched in the past centuries accuratly the relations of the witnesses who wrote the Hadiths.

The important thing on Aisha to remember is, that she is one major factor in the separation of the Islam into Sunni and Shia - Sunni see her father as true successor of Mohammad, the Shia followers regard Ali as true successor, who finally defeated her in the "Battle of the Camel" (Must have been hard times then)... and that has an important effect on her credibility in Shia islam.

 

[jedidia]

The debate of 'sprits' existing beyond our notable universe, though, would have to be sparked by proof that, upon death, matter from the body is lost

I heard several times that a body indeed loses about 0.1 grams of mass in the moment of death, but I don't have a source no have I bothered to check the matter, nor does it matter much to me.

On the question where thought goes upon death, well... This sounds very greek. I'm a believer, so I believe in "life after death", at least in a way. Because, I'm also an enthusiastic theologian and noticed soon enough that what we generally call "soul" or "spirit" is NOT ANYWHERE mentioned in the bible. The term "soul" in the bible does not have anything eternal about it. It is, in the contrary, a term discribing a living being, wheather human or animal. There is no eternal soul that leaves the body on death and lives on forever, that's greek philosophy, not sound theology. It is however the prevailant believ in our realms when it comes to live after death.

I try generally not being ignorant to science, so I see that even human thought, in the end, depends on (very complex) biochemical reactions and electricity. There is no "mind" in a platonic sense, mind is a product of physics, which is body. I'm not saying that psychology is the same as physiology, note that. The only thing I'm saying is that psychology without physiology cannot exist.

To get back to theology, the bible talks about a third part that makes up a human, the "spirit". It is generally considered the divine part of man. However, that spirit is only one part, it is not the "essence" of man. The influence of platonism into christian theology has majorly let to the one wrong assumption, that spirit is mind.

I don't know if that "spirit" would be measurable in some ways. I think it's possible, but therefore not necesseraly true. I consider the whole man, his physiology and psychology kind of a low-grade "simulation" of what is God. Like an artist paints a landscape with colour, God painted his own image with flesh and blod. When we die, we die. We are flesh, we are blood, we are, in the end, causality. Without our physiology we cannot think. It's what we are.

So what about live after death now? Well, I believe in the resurection of the dead. The new creation. That I wil be recreated one day with a new, imperishable body. Now this gets as far from science as it can, therefore I stop... :dry:

One very prominent character seems conspicuous by his absence in that list.

yeah, I noticed that too...

 

[n0mad23]

If consciousness is the non-local variable (which seems a whole lot more 'logical' than the multiverse), then we'll all have an answer sooner than we'd probably like.

Why is everyone so convinced that the opposite of 'life' is 'death'? It seems like the opposite of 'death' is in fact 'birth.' Death is an event, not a state of being.

I like that there are Mysteries, but I don't think the answers come from holy books, or the consensus provided by religions.

 

[Moonwalker]

Why is everyone so convinced that the opposite of 'life' is 'death'?

Because it's logically. Death just means to become non-existent which is rather obvious after a life has gone. I would like to talk to my grandpa to say something I forgot to say him but he just does not exist anymore sadly. The opposite of non-existent is to be existent, and so to life, which obviously is the case for me at the moment