McCain or Obama?

[Brad]

CBS, scrambling to recover a little of its integrity ...

They lost that after the Dan Rather fiasco.

 

[GregBurch]

A friend sent me this. Sure to offend 61.54% of the forum:

Beer and Taxes

Taxes explained in terms of beer consumption -- gotta read to the end. Unless you're a true Democrat - then you really don't want to understand this. For those who understand, no explanation is needed. For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible.

Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay $1.
The sixth would pay $3.
The seventh would pay $7.
The eighth would pay $12.
The ninth would pay $18.
The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.

So, that's what they decided to do. The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve. 'Since you are all such good customers, he said, 'I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20. Drinks for the ten now cost just $80.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But what about the other six men - the paying customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his 'fair share?' They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end
up being paid to drink his beer. So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.

And so:

The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).
The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings).
The seventh now paid $5 instead of $7 (28%savings).
The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).
The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).
The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).

Each of the six was better off than before and the first four continued to drink for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings. 'I only got a dollar out of the $20', declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man,' but he got $10!' 'Yeah, that's right', exclaimed the fifth man. 'I only saved a dollar, too. It's unfair that he got ten times more than I!' 'That's true!!' shouted the seventh man. 'Why should he get $10 back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!'

'Wait a minute,' yelled the first four men in unison. 'We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!' The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up. The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!

And that, boys and girls, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

 

[tblaxland]

A friend sent me this. Sure to offend 61.54% of the forum:

No explanation needed

 

[dougkeenan]

Could be worse. The bartender could be borrowing beer from next door just to pour into sand, and putting that on the men's tab.

 

[David]

The Hope and Change gravy train:

CBS, scrambling to recover a little of its integrity ...

Video no longer available. Can you provide a summary (or an alternative source for the video)?

 

[Urwumpe]

But what if the fifth man to get a beer for free, is the tenth man? Or he gets one beer for free for each beer he buys.

There are many possible points to show that the allegory does not fit to the real US tax system at all. For example the Bush tax cuts had less effect on the percentage of the lower incomes.

And of course, the cost of the beer will now rise...quickly.

 

[Ghostrider]

Could be far worse: the bartender could take the money and tell the customers there is no beer, and make sure there's no other bar they could go.

 

[GregBurch]

Video no longer available. Can you provide a summary (or an alternative source for the video)?

Seems to be working here:

Basically, the gist is this: Obama's taking more money from the kind "fat cats" he started out by criticizing. On top of this, CBS reviews the many bits elements of the "weird anonymous donors" story.

As for the latter, I've seen discussions by people who seem to know what they're talking about that indicate that the security features that would have blocked donations that come from problematic sources would have had to have been intentionally disabled. in other words, there had to be a conscious choice to make the donation system susceptible to the kind of over-limit donations that are coming to light.

 

[joeybigO]

But what if the fifth man to get a beer for free, is the tenth man? Or he gets one beer for free for each beer he buys.

There are many possible points to show that the allegory does not fit to the real US tax system at all. For example the Bush tax cuts had less effect on the percentage of the lower incomes.

And of course, the cost of the beer will now rise...quickly.

Yes and no...

No as to your point about the tax cuts, obviously if you read the point then you would understand... Less tax cuts for the lower incomes, since they currently don't pay that much....

and No to the price. Price increases on supply and demand, you can see it in gas, food, and of course my favourite: the Forums here, if we use more CPU then we pay more... My mom the economic teacher taught me this when I was like 8.

 

[ar81]

http://www.journalism.org/node/13307

 

[Urwumpe]

No as to your point about the tax cuts, obviously if you read the point then you would understand... Less tax cuts for the lower incomes, since they currently don't pay that much....

Yes, when you count by quantity. When you reduce the real taxes of all people by 100 $, the rich people won't notice and and the poor will suddenly pay almost no taxes.

and No to the price. Price increases on supply and demand, you can see it in gas, food, and of course my favourite: the Forums here, if we use more CPU then we pay more... My mom the economic teacher taught me this when I was like 8.

Prices also depend on how economists expect the supply and demand to develop. Imagine the price for the forum only going up, because the forum provider expects a rise in popularity.

 

[joeybigO]

Yes, when you count by quantity. When you reduce the real taxes of all people by 100 $, the rich people won't notice and and the poor will suddenly pay almost no taxes.

Thank God we do not live in a socialistic society that does that. Mainly because i'm one of those who will never benefit from those cuts. If thats what puts me in the lower class then okay, i'm down with that.

Prices also depend on how economists expect the supply and demand to develop.

Once again, that only applies to oil and Housing... The two that seem to be the biggest trouble makers lately... I haven't seen any stories about how Beer prices are going through the roof lately, however I don't drink anymore, so I could be wrong.

 

[Urwumpe]

Thank God we do not live in a socialistic society that does that. Mainly because i'm one of those who will never benefit from those cuts. If thats what puts me in the lower class then okay, i'm down with that.

It depends on what you consider socialism. In the US, the term socialism is already applied, when somebody makes laws, which are more pareto efficient as the existing laws - or lack of regulation.

Tax laws have a lot of game theory inside them, and it is not bad studying the ideas of it, instead of for example only using economic theories from 1870 as base for your tax calculations (including Marx)

Once again, that only applies to oil and Housing... The two that seem to be the biggest trouble makers lately... I haven't seen any stories about how Beer prices are going through the roof lately, however I don't drink anymore, so I could be wrong.

What do you think, beer is made of? (Of course, in the USA, this is hard to tell sometimes, but in general) You have hop and malt. Both products which like all agricultural products depend a lot on the weather of the year. When you have expectations of a bad weather for the year, the local prices will skyrocket. Global markets reduce the effect of weather a bit, but introduce new factors - for example increased demand far away. When Australia has a drought, they have locally higher prices for their agricultural products and it is more effective to sell them there. So your prices will rise.

 

[joeybigO]

Well the 15% Steve Forbes tax plan really made sense and if that became true it would havenever been an issue this year and we wouldn't be talking about it. However Obama should win and we shall see. In the greatest years of what we call a good president (Clinton) the airlines took a dump and started the revolution of why you pay so much for a flight now. We shall see.

 

[Urwumpe]

Well the 15% Steve Forbes tax plan really made sense and if that became true it would havenever been an issue this year and we wouldn't be talking about it. However Obama should win and we shall see. In the greatest years of what we call a good president (Clinton) the airlines took a dump and started the revolution of why you pay so much for a flight now. We shall see.

Yes, but see it like that: The election is not even lost, but the republicans are already busy looking who to blame. Not a good style.

And it can't get worse than Bush anyway. At least... not much.

And also: While Clinton can also be blamed for the New Economy crash and the DMCA, both things also have their good sides (Many survivors of the crash now keep the economy turning, while the favorites of Bush&Co are doomed, DMCA also produced legislative certainty for digital content, even if the wrong certainty)

And the airline problem is currently addressed by European institutions - because the price they advertise is not the final price, which is against European competition laws. It just takes a while longer as it should, which is a problem.

 

[joeybigO]

Something we can finally agree about. However I'm not pushing more govt. I'm pushing less govt.

 

[Urwumpe]

Something we can finally agree about. However I'm not pushing more govt. I'm pushing less govt.

I am pushing "Having the government control the rules between citizens and other entities, and stay out of the rest."

I have for example no problem with the government setting minimum and maximum limits for salaries, as both extremes cause damage. As long as the government does not interfere in negotiations between minimum and maximum.

The finance crisis is also one such example, where the government can do so without tyranny...if a bank in Germany wants government money for solving the crisis, the government wants influence. Also the salaries of bank managers get capped at 500,000 € (625,000 USD), as long as the government is funding the show.

 

[David]

Seems to be working here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86RAp_iuhOQ

OK. Thanks. I don't know what had happened, since this seems to be the previous url that I had used (O-F seems not to be embedding videos, any more; I just copied what was between the quotation marks in your link). But anyway, it worked this time.

Obama's fundraising seems actually to be reminiscent of that by the Clintons (and Al "no controlling legal authority" Gore).

 

[Andy44]

What do you think, beer is made of? (Of course, in the USA, this is hard to tell sometimes, but in general)

Ooh! A shot from across the pond! Ouch.

About Obama's fundraising: what did you expect from a Chicago politician? Honesty and fair dealings?

 

[Quick_Nick]

Follow the advice of Captain Capitalism when you vote this year. :lol:

(if you're not familiar with the Captain Capitalism series, BECOME familiar)