The militarization of space

[fsci123]

I was watching star trek and they were battling and stuff so.....

Well i personally believe the closest time a spacewar could occur is 2075...
Where would it occur on the moon or in low earth orbit(100km)
How would it occur: Rods from god, Femtosecond lasers...

 

[Izack]

People fight where there are things to fight about. Oil fields, desired territory, grocery markets. There is not much in space that is profitable to us now; really there isn't anything in space that doesn't cost an enormous amount of money to get to.

For now at least the role of space technology in warfare will remain in surface reconnaissance, surveillance, navigation and missiles.

The stuff you see in Star Trek/Wars, etc... pretty much any "science" fiction you watch/read will never happen. It springs from the minds of artists and dreamers, not engineers and strategists.

 

[Ark]

I think it'll be a long time before we see anything more than tagging satellites in LEO. There's just nothing economically worth fighting over.

 

[IgnoreThisBarrel]

I certainly wish we had the technology to have wars in orbit (and beyond), but I have a feeling there might be some unforseen (by me) consequences.

 

[Jamesep3]

War in space is just to pointless. It would require alot of reasorces to get an army that would fight in space and then if they are unable to be supported or resupplied from earth they would either surrender or die. Plus there is as of yet no practical way of attacking the surface from space. I think we will only fight at the edge of the atmosthere for the next couple of centries but no higher. Unless some idiot tries it and finds out how impractical it is.:facepalm:

@Izack When you say there is nothing up there and that the fighting on star wars/treck will never happen I think you've left out fighting for other planets. I do not agree with you when you say never happen, I think next melenia or the one after, by then reasorces on earth will have depleated and the reasorces and accomodation space on other planets will have become very desirable.

 

[SiberianTiger]

In a way, we already have space warfare, since ICBM warheads travel through space to their targets.

 

[tori]

There's one thing up there that is definitely worth fighting over: our assets. We have our comm sats, GPS sats, spy sats and more in the near future. Our ground forces depend on these. An enemy with very basic space technology (light lift vehicles, orbital rendezvous) has the ability to deliver an explosive fragmentation device to our asset, disabling it.

At some point in the future we will have lunar manufacturing bases (viable because dv to GEO is much lower from lunar surface than from Earth), and those will represent valuable targets as well.

 

[Urwumpe]

Space is already a battlefield. Maybe none with burning wrecks, but sure not less one with fighting taking place right now - a war of the frequencies and trajectories.

Also, I won't tell until when the first hot space war will take place. I can't tell when two spaceflight nations will be in war at all. Hopefully never, but with the proliferation of spaceflight technology, this becomes more and more likely.

 

[T.Neo]

ICBM trajectories, reconnaissance satellites, even GPS satellites (that have become important for civillian uses). They're all in space, or... mostly in space.

There's a difference though. They're all related to fighting on Earth. That's because pretty much everything worth fighting over is on Earth.

The "science" you see in Star Trek is utter rubbish. The aliens are utter rubbish, the spaceships are utter rubbish, the weapons are utter rubbish, the planets are utter rubbish... may I go on?

When you see Star Trek or Star Wars or anything similar, try to think of it as technologically themed magic. Because that's really what this sort of soft science fiction is... a "science-fiction" themed fantasy.

I do not wish for war to happen in space. I do not wish for war to happen anywhere. But... when it does happen, it'll be because there is something there that is worth fighting over. Whatever that might be, it probably won't be a reason to fight in the next few centuries to come.

Interestingly enough, the Outer Space Treaty may prevent many reasons for war... for example, it means you can't claim land on an extraterrestrial body (and presumably can't claim mineral rights- or can you)? If resources on another planet are the common heritage of mankind, nobody can claim them for themselves... maybe it is a cause for concern when some paraiah cuts up a nice little resource-rich patch of the Lunar surface and blocks all others from entering it... until the UN calls for another one of those "no fly zones"...

It would require alot of reasorces to get an army that would fight in space and then if they are unable to be supported or resupplied from earth they would either surrender or die.

Nobody is talking about "an army in space". War and "launching armies into space to do battle in space for no real reason" are two different things.

Plus there is as of yet no practical way of attacking the surface from space.

Wrong. The capability to deorbit from orbit has existed, along with manned spaceflight, for 50 years.

Already by deorbiting something with precision from orbit (something that won't burn up too easily), you have a way of attacking the surface... precision targeting is not impossible, as it is done already by nuclear missiles.

See Rods From God and similar concepts. They are non-nuclear, hypervelocity weapons intended to be used on surface targets from orbit.

 

[Moach]

war in space doesn't make sense....
from the early days of men, one of the prime reason for war was that two groups would want to have something at the same time, whereas only one could have it....

there's not much up there that's valuable enough to instigate such behaviour... not in men at least... we (most of us) don't do war just for the hell of it... if there's nothing to fight for, then there's probablyh not gonna be much fighting at all


now... if borgs decide to assimilate our beloved third rock from the sun, then we'll show 'em

 

[T.Neo]

To clarify, I believe extraterrestrial (i.e. beyond Earth) war will happen, after (if) there is a considerable human presence off Earth (this is unfortunate human nature). I do think though, that going to war in space for no other reason is about as silly as a femtosecond laser.

How would it occur: Rods from god, Femtosecond lasers...

What is a femtosecond laser? What's so important about the femtosecond bit? Why femtoseconds? :uhh:

Most lasers will have to 'shine' for a lot longer than a femtosecond... I know "femtosecond" sounds cool, but it's a really, really short amount of time...

 

[fsci123]

To clarify, I believe extraterrestrial (i.e. beyond Earth) war will happen, after (if) there is a considerable human presence off Earth (this is unfortunate human nature). I do think though, that going to war in space for no other reason is about as silly as a femtosecond laser.



What is a femtosecond laser? What's so important about the femtosecond bit? Why femtoseconds? :uhh:

Most lasers will have to 'shine' for a lot longer than a femtosecond... I know "femtosecond" sounds cool, but it's a really, really short amount of time...

Well...
Femtosecond lasers create pusles thy last only a few femtoseconds which can theoreticaly cause damage to an object by shockwaves created by the lasers when it ablates the surface laser...

Number 2: ETcivs may not have the concept of war and if any thing needed to be disputed they may(in a blunt saying) be more Interested in having sex just like bonobos do...

 

[ZombiezuRFER]

I do not wish for war to happen in space. I do not wish for war to happen anywhere. But... when it does happen, it'll be because there is something there that is worth fighting over. Whatever that might be, it probably won't be a reason to fight in the next few centuries to come.

Interestingly enough, the Outer Space Treaty may prevent many reasons for war... for example, it means you can't claim land on an extraterrestrial body (and presumably can't claim mineral rights- or can you)? If resources on another planet are the common heritage of mankind, nobody can claim them for themselves... maybe it is a cause for concern when some paraiah cuts up a nice little resource-rich patch of the Lunar surface and blocks all others from entering it... until the UN calls for another one of those "no fly zones"...

I doubt the outer space treaty can prevent any space warfare at all. For instance, the Treaty of Versailles I believe it was, limited germany from producing military aircraft and engines above certain specifications. Hitler obeyed it somewhat originally, until he realized there was no true way to enforce it. I feel this treaty is more or less the same deal. In fact, it already is militarized, with military satellites and all that.

 

[T.Neo]

Well...
Femtosecond lasers create pusles thy last only a few femtoseconds which can theoreticaly cause damage to an object by shockwaves created by the lasers when it ablates the surface laser...

What shockwave? I have heard of lasers creating shockwaves, but never a femtosecond... shockwave... thing.

Where did you read this?

Number 2: ETcivs may not have the concept of war and if any thing needed to be disputed they may(in a blunt saying) be more Interested in having sex just like bonobos do...

Bonobos still have physical conflict, and remember that small-level conflict is different from war between civilisations.

Chimps, apes, etc, have that sort of conflict partially because they lack language. Humans have language, which means that families don't spend their time beating eachother up (usually :shifty, and it means that there is a stability which means civilisation can exist... but also a way for civilisations to disagree with eachother and resort to conflict.

I'm having a hard time thinking of an alien species that lacks a concept of conflict, especially because the core concept exists in most higher animals.

I doubt the outer space treaty can prevent any space warfare at all. For instance, the Treaty of Versailles I believe it was, limited germany from producing military aircraft and engines above certain specifications. Hitler obeyed it somewhat originally, until he realized there was no true way to enforce it. I feel this treaty is more or less the same deal. In fact, it already is militarized, with military satellites and all that.

Military satellites are a different story, they are not outlawed by the Outer Space treaty; the Outer Space treaty is more concerned with placing nuclear weapons in orbit, or weapons testing in space or on astronomical bodies.

You can already deal with a lot of actions in space, with repurcussions on the ground... political stuff, etc.

If it came to the worst of... resource hogging, for example, even some sort of strike on the ground (taking out communications or launch facilities, which would be pretty bad in and of itself), would be more likely than military action in space.

But that doesn't mean military action in space is entirely implausible... there are other scenarios where it might work out, but these are pretty much far-future only.

 

[ZombiezuRFER]

I'm having a hard time thinking of an alien species that lacks a concept of conflict, especially because the core concept exists in most higher animals.

Its necessary for society anyways. Without conflict, no invention would occur, so that society would never reach space, nor even know about. I agree with you there.

Military satellites are a different story, they are not outlawed by the Outer Space treaty; the Outer Space treaty is more concerned with placing nuclear weapons in orbit, or weapons testing in space or on astronomical bodies.

You can already deal with a lot of actions in space, with repurcussions on the ground... political stuff, etc.

If it came to the worst of... resource hogging, for example, even some sort of strike on the ground (taking out communications or launch facilities, which would be pretty bad in and of itself), would be more likely than military action in space.

But that doesn't mean military action in space is entirely implausible... there are other scenarios where it might work out, but these are pretty much far-future only.

Still won't stop anyone from doing it. Some terrorist or something gains control of a satellite and launch area plus some nukes, there ya go. Admittedly that's a bit much, but as space becomes more and more domestic in the future... (Lunar cruises are already on offer. You get 9 days flight, 40 seconds of the lunar surface. 1 mil a seat.)

 

[T.Neo]

Its necessary for society anyways. Without conflict, no invention would occur, so that society would never reach space, nor even know about. I agree with you there.

Well... invention would probably occur, but conflict is definitely a cause for a lot of innovation.

Still won't stop anyone from doing it. Some terrorist or something gains control of a satellite and launch area plus some nukes, there ya go.

I don't know how a terrorist would be able to do anything with a satellite, a launch site and some nukes... each one of those things is pretty difficult to attain alone, let alone together, and turning them into some sort of... space... weapon... would be unlikely for a terrorist.

Admittedly that's a bit much, but as space becomes more and more domestic in the future... (Lunar cruises are already on offer. You get 9 days flight, 40 seconds of the lunar surface. 1 mil a seat.)

Well... maybe, but that is still highly controlled.

Lunar cruises on offer? Yeah, right... I'll invest in one if they ever start flying.

 

[ZombiezuRFER]

From wikipedia, which can be re-inforced by the actual company site
"Space Adventures is offering advance booking for a future lunar mission involving travel to circumnavigate the moon, on a circumlunar trajectory. Pricing has been announced at US$100 million per seat. This mission will utilize two Russian launch vehicles. One Soyuz capsule will be launched into low-earth orbit by a Soyuz rocket. Once in orbit, the manned capsule will dock with a second, unmanned, lunar-propulsion module which will then power the circumlunar portion of the trip. The mission will last 8–9 days. It will take 2–3 days to approach the Upper Stage (Block DM), 2–3 days to approach the moon, there's approximately a 45 minute observation of the moon from 100 km-1000 km above the moon’s surface, and will return to Earth in 2–3 days. Space Adventures has announced that they have sold one of the seats on the lunar voyage for $150 million, and are in negotiations for selling a second seat. They wouldn't reveal the name of the person to whom the ticket was sold but claim he or she is well known. Space Adventures hopes the circumlunar voyage will occur sometime in 2015."

Company's website here
http://www.spaceadventures.com/

From what I read, its 1 mil a seat though...

 

[fsci123]

Well I personaly would be pretty skeptical about being the first person on that mission to the moon... You gotta remember that people would pay money for all types of crap... Like buying kidney stones from a man with hepatitis b in the shape of the queen of englands nose for a million dollars... Or paying 3000 dollars for ancient dust found in the feces of a human/dinosaur hybrid from the lush forest surface of jupiter... Or buying craters the size of houses on the moon for $500000... Which all turn out to be scams eventualy...

And as with the etcivs is that they wouldn't be completely unified they probably have nations... But it's the factor of how much control they have over civilians if the concept of that exist... If we were heading to war with an alien country it would be country to country...

 

[Jamesep3]

Did some one say terrorists might try to have war in space? How could they do that with the US and Nato watching basicly evry part of the planet. I think that would be extreamly unlikely. What is more likely is large nations using space as a place to launch terrorist attacks on small unfortunate nations who are just trying to quell riots, sort of like Libia right now but with Inter continental missiles and deorbited bombs.( I do not like Gidaffe he is just a useful example for airstrikes right now):dry:

 

[fsci123]

Well terrorist probably wouldn't be able to launch a rocket... The US will detect it and some measure to protect the populace of deter it would be put into effect...