OFMM Development: Atmospheric Vessels

[Bloodworth]

Ok, Since we appear to have decided on creating a custom lander instead of off the shelf equipment let us begin design of the lander here, so that our modelers know what is needed.

Basic requirements for the lander:

1) The mission needs a multiuse ssto vehicle. Without this, the scope of the mission needs to be seriously reassessed.

2) The lander needs to carry a minimum crew of 5 (arbitrary number, but again, a lander with a capacity of 2 or 3 will make this mission very difficult.)

3) The lander needs to be both UMMU and UCGO compatible.

4) The lander will need to be able to carry some UCGO boxes, 4 to 8 depending on size and weight.

5) The lander will require a docking port (yes, I know that was a no brainer)

6) The controls and responsiveness of the lander will need to be kept simple enough that all of our pilots can learn to fly it in time, but not so simple that it defeats the purpose of having created a custom vessel in the first place.

That's all I have for the moment. Let the discussion begin...

 

[Voyager]

Could we see if we could have a way to hold a small rover for the men to ride around on.

 

[Izack]

Currently, the OSHV is serving as the lander, carried down by the Skycrane system in development by Urwumpe. I believe Columbia42 is developing the OSHV.

As for vehicles, I've been trying to find ways to fit a combination ground transport/forklift/construction vehicle, but an efficient design under 2 tons doesn't seem likely. Ground vehicles will absolutely be required though, and should probably fit inside BJ's SVTU (which seems capable of holding the ISS, so not sure how exactly you determine what can go in it...:lol

The SMEV seems so far like a totally ambiguous design. Input for that element here would be helpful.:shrug:

 

[Ashaman42]

Am I right in thinking that despite the higher fuel costs it makes sense to land under power rather than using a parachute? I'd imagine repacking a chute so that it opens correctly wouldn't be something done on the surface of Mars.

 

[Kevon Daye]

As far as the vehicles go, might I suggest sending them down separately (preferably before we send the lander down, in case one misses.) in their own "Landers", which would be nothing more than an aerodynamic, heat shielded shell, with an auto-land program similar to the Arrow's.

 

[Bloodworth]

Am I right in thinking that despite the higher fuel costs it makes sense to land under power rather than using a parachute? I'd imagine repacking a chute so that it opens correctly wouldn't be something done on the surface of Mars.

Yes, the extreme cold on mars would make chute packing a no go. Besides, if I'm not mistaken, you cannot do a purely chute descent on mars (unless you use aribags, and even then...) due to the extremely thin atmosphere. I believe that even with parachutes you would need landing rockets for the final bit of the landing (unless you want to bounce for a few hundred yards...I wonder how UMMU would handle that?).

Kevon, I agree, that would save fuel in the landers. Still, we have actual engineers in our midst and some of the best add-on devs out there. I'd just like to see what they come up with when they get together with a purpose, just for the coolness factor While yes, we are sticking to current or very near future tech; there's no saying we can't do it with style

 

[T.Neo]

I'm a tad skeptical of the skycrane system, it seems shaky to me. Though perhaps I should shut up as it's essentially a lander working on the same principle of HVIPS (propulsion before payload).

The SMEV seems so far like a totally ambiguous design. Input for that element here would be helpful.:shrug:

Perhaps something like the various [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_Escape_Systems"]LESS[/ame] designs that were proposed for Apollo?

Or a temporary habitation module that the skycrane could carry on suborbital "hops".

 

[fireballs619]

I'm a tad skeptical of the skycrane system, it seems shaky to me. Though perhaps I should shut up as it's essentially a lander working on the same principle of HVIPS (propulsion before payload).
Perhaps something like the various LESS designs that were proposed for Apollo?

Or a temporary habitation module that the skycrane could carry on suborbital "hops".

I don't like the LESS designs, as they were developed with minimalist views in mind. My fear would be that they they would not be able to carry extra supplies that we might need when exploring. The system works on the moon, where gravity is barely a factor, but would they work on Mars with it's increased gravity. I haven't crunched numbers, but we would probably have to increase the thrust and fuel capacity to make those types of designs work.

I am more in favor of a traditional rover type design, such as the ones on Apollo 15, 16, and 17. It only had a mass of 210kg, so it shouldn't be a problem to bring one, or maybe more, along. It was designed to hold an additional 490kg, which is great for our needs. Their only weak point is their speed, which maxed out at around 8 kph. Of course, we wouldn't be using the exact same designs that Apollo did, but I still feel that these would be more reliable that a LESS type design.

 

[T.Neo]

I am more in favor of a traditional rover type design, such as the ones on Apollo 15, 16, and 17. It only had a mass of 210kg, so it shouldn't be a problem to bring one, or maybe more, along. It was designed to hold an additional 490kg, which is great for our needs. Their only weak point is their speed, which maxed out at around 8 kph. Of course, we wouldn't be using the exact same designs that Apollo did, but I still feel that these would be more reliable that a LESS type design.

I concur. A light, unpressurised rover that could potentially be packed into a UCGO cargo would be the ideal.

It may allow for only trips within a relatively small area, but I think it's too amibitious to try and explore the entire planet in one go, on the first mission(s).

 

[Urwumpe]

I'm a tad skeptical of the skycrane system, it seems shaky to me. Though perhaps I should shut up as it's essentially a lander working on the same principle of HVIPS (propulsion before payload).

Well, it is no rigid connection during the final minute before touchdown - but also this decouples the payload from the propulsion system vibrations. During the reentry/orbit phases of the skycrane, the payload needs a rigid connection to the skycrane, currently I even prefer having the payload enclosed inside an approximately toroidal vehicle structure, so the expendable amount of the heat shield can be reduced and the CoG is closer to the center of the vehicle.

I agree on the docking port, it is needed - i want this docking port on the top and have it joined with an attachment that can be used after landing for installing additional structure on top of the OSHV.

I calculated with 8 UCGO payload boxes at one ton each, stored at the lower deck of the OSHV (as 2x2x2 stack)

I think the ideal crew size for the first iterations is 8, this is like a shuttle crew + 1 additional MS.

One astronaut should be trained as in-flight surgeon, the OSHV needs to have a small medical station on-board, that is separate of the rest of the functions, out of psychological reasons. Just one bed with all the needed gear for emergency surgery, if 25% of the crew are requiring intensive medical care (2 astronauts), the situation is bad enough to switch to emergency medical situations.

I don't know if we are going to make this have any effect in the program, but it makes sense to me.

Also, there should be a laboratory that is large enough that 2 astronauts can work there at a time, and an equally dimensioned workshop for repairing parts and producing spares if needed (just like you have on a decent naval vessel, even German submarines had the space for such a workshop in their aft section)

The main living room should have small rooms for each astronaut, so they can find some peace, have an open kitchen with attached common galley. The galley also acts as living room, and thus should also have some flexibility, like for example permitting watching movies together. (Team building)

The command/communication gear could be part of the living room space, but I recommend at least having some parts of it in separate rooms of this space - you sure don't feel well if your work comes into your living room, being able to pull a shade between your free time space and work space is sure better.

All rooms should have C&W and communication terminals, like we have in the ISS. If there is a fire, all astronauts need to be alerted quickly, regardless where they are.

 

[Columbia42]

If we want to build a base that will be extended over time it is my opinion that the most efficient design would look like this:

As far as the structure of the hab module/lander is concerned I like Urwumpe's ideas. I think that the module that he described should be the main hab of the ship. This hab can then also serve as the lander and the surface base. This module can then be left on the surface for the next crew and we can return to the ship in a small ascent spacecraft. The command/control center will stay on the ship throughout this whole process. (If it is made part of the lander than it will be left on Mars and we will have to have a second one for the return trip.) As for the developement of this rather complicated spacecraft, I believe most of it is beyond my programming ability. (I have virtually no experience with UMMU or UCGO).

 

[Izack]

Perhaps something like the various LESS designs that were proposed for Apollo?

Best spaceship EVER! They looks so happy... :lol:

Seriously though, I agree with using a rover. It is much more practical for this sort of mission, not to mention it looks a whole lot safer than this contraption in an atmosphere, however thin.

To Urwumpe, that really clarified a lot. The design seems sound, and will look amazing once completed.
Now if only I had some programming ability, I could help. Argh.

 

[Urwumpe]

To Urwumpe, that really clarified a lot. The design seems sound, and will look amazing once completed.
Now if only I had some programming ability, I could help. Argh.

Don't worry about that. Once I have the design finished and somebody can do the meshes, I can also implement it in C++. I just need some time calculating stuff and writing the design specifications down, including reference drawings.

Also, kwan3217 was interested in doing some programming work, since he did the serious contributions to SSU, you would be a fool if you don't accept his offer.


What should be as important as the lander: We should write a "Project Manifest", that explains what we want and what we expect from the people who take part in it. I would for example expect that we have minimum standards on how the missions should be presented in the forum, like doing a dairy with screen shots.

If the OFMM is like some sort of interactive Orbiter novel, it would be perfect IMHO.

 

[Izack]

Also, kwan3217 was interested in doing some programming work, since he did the serious contributions to SSU, you would be a fool if you don't accept his offer.

I saw his post. I didn't know he was an SSU developer, though!

I would for example expect that we have minimum standards on how the missions should be presented in the forum, like doing a dairy with screen shots.

If the OFMM is like some sort of interactive Orbiter novel, it would be perfect IMHO.

Well, that's one part I needn't worry about. I'm a screenshot maniac. I also keep 'scientific' records of some of my more important voyages (a whole scribbler devoted to the study of Venus, for example.)

Having a diary of OFMM would be great. It would give some real satisfying results at the end of the mission, as well as providing clinching proof to use against the inevitable Mars Hoax theorists. :rofl:

 

[fireballs619]

Now if only I had some programming ability, I could help. Argh.

I know how you feel here. I have no programming capabilities. I could probably do some texturing, but I wouldn't know how to format it and get it into Orbiter and whatnot. I feel like I'm not contributing too much

 

[Kevon Daye]

I thought this might be a good idea.


Universal Inflatable Disposable Heat Shield System (UIDHSS):
1:Heat shield stored in UCGO crate, unpacks automatically
2:Heat shield attaches to Lander
3:Lander enters Atmosphere
4:Heat shield detaches
5:Lander deploys stabilization chute(s) and fires hover engine for final descent.

To be used as a kind of conversion kit for non-atmospheric landers

 

[Alexw95]

what if for the rover we made a rover lander that took it down via parachutes with baloons for the landing?

 

[Voyager]

If we do write a story, I am author! I am a very good writer.

 

[Izack]

If we do write a story, I am author! I am a very good writer.

Ah, really? So am I! :thumbup:
(Though whether I'm good or not remains to be seen. :shifty

I don't know if that's what the OP had in mind, but if you want to write a recollection/story of OFMM, that would be great!

 

[supersonic]

Would a aircraft like this work for anything airborn?