OS WARS MEGA THREAD (Now debating proprietary vs. open-source!)

[garyw]

It is? I'd heard that it was due out.... So behind the times with these OS updates!

 

[dbeachy1]

Yeah, it just came out -- you can download it via the Windows Store app.

 

[Linguofreak]

Well, I do have Win 7 Ultimate, the only problem would be finding all the proper drivers.

You should still be able to find machines selling with Windows 7, in which case drivers wouldn't be a problem.

 

[kamaz]

Now in order for you not having to copy the whole orbiter API, but in order for a developper not having to port all the code to an entirely different language, how realistic would a SpaceWay C++ API be? Someone else could still write a wrapper for it if he wants to, but porting just to other API calls would be pretty simple if the add-on was designed with the possibility in mind.

There are two fundamental issues:

1. C++ is not a proper language, it is hack on top of C. Really. There is no way to natively express C++ objects in binary (DLL). So if the VC++ compiler sees the following C++ declaration (example from Wikipedia):

void __cdecl abc<def<int>,void*>::xyz(void);

it mangles the name to this:

xyz@?$abc@V?$def@H@@PAX@@

and puts that as an exported name in DLL. So trying to create your own DLL which matches an object-oriented interface of some other DLL is challenging, and creating that DLL with something other than VC++ (i.e. Pascal) is a good way to go crazy. VESSEL/VESSEL2 interface contains tens of C++ methods you'd have to duplicate.

2. Orbiter API is not only C++-oriented (see above), it is also not designed in a way which isolates the vehicle code from the rest of the system: the vessel code is allowed to call any API functions. So in principle, you'd have to reimplement all of Orbiter API to achieve full compatibility.

 

[Urwumpe]

There is no way to natively express C++ objects in binary (DLL).

Sorry, but that was a deep dive into the toilet - why do you blame C++ for the limitations of Microsofts PE file format, that it uses for object files, static libraries, executables and DLLs?

Ever dared to look what C++ classes looks like in a ELF file?

Visual C++ really does the worst of all solutions to map the C++ language to the PE file format, but still, the cause of the problem is not C++, but Microsofts standards that are, like always, cheaply stolen from the worst possible source.

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_mangling"]Name mangling - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

Visual C++ name mangling - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[kamaz]

Sorry, but that was a deep dive into the toilet - why do you blame C++ for the limitations of Microsofts PE file format, that it uses for object files, static libraries, executables and DLLs?

Because the first C++ compiler (Cfront) was not really a compiler -- it was a program which translated C++ classes into C code using name mangling. It was a hack to avoid writing a full-blown compiler and an object-oriented executable format... And we're still stuck with this hack 30 years later.

 

[Urwumpe]

Because the first C++ compiler (Cfront) was not really a compiler -- it was a program which translated C++ classes into C code using name mangling. It was a hack to avoid writing a full-blown compiler and an object-oriented executable format... And we're still stuck with this hack 30 years later.

1983 - first release of Cfront
1991 - last release of Cfront, because integrating exception handling into it was practically impossible.
1993 - first use of PE file format in Windows NT 3.1, first version of Visual C++, compatible to Cfront 2.1

Yes, the C++ language is to be blamed of this. :facepalm:

 

[kamaz]

Yes, the C++ language is to be blamed of this. :facepalm:

Symbol resolution belongs to a (dynamic) linker. But instead of writing a C++-aware linker, Stroustrup used a hack (name mangling) and C compiler and linker. Then ISO C++ committee declared that name mangling is an internal functionality of the compiler and thus exempt from standarization. The result is that you cannot access C++ objects in DLL (or .so for that matter) without knowing which version of which compiler was used to generate the binary.

 

[Urwumpe]

Symbol resolution belongs to a (dynamic) linker. But instead of writing a C++-aware linker, Stroustrup used a hack (name mangling) and C compiler and linker. Then ISO C++ committee declared that name mangling is an internal functionality of the compiler and thus exempt from standarization. The result is that you cannot access C++ objects in DLL (or .so for that matter) without knowing which version of which compiler was used to generate the binary.

Wrong.

Please compare the name mangling in VC++ to name mangling in other C++ compilers.

 

[kuddel]

Please! Don't make this another religious "my language is the best" thread, would you?
There is NO perfect language for all purposes! (not yet...? )

 

[Urwumpe]

There is NO perfect language for all purposes! (not yet...? )

Except Python.

 

[Spacethingy]

XP End of Support

In just over a week, April 8th, Microsoft will discontinue official support for Windows XP, resulting in the end of system updates.
http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/end-support-help

So, what are you guys doing? Nothing? Panicking? Upgrading software or hardware? Putting on sunglasses and chilling?

 

[garyw]

I moved away from XP over a year ago.

Remember, that all this means is that there are no more security updates, not that XP won't work anymore. However, it's a good idea to keep an eye on security bulletins to see what XP might be vulnerable to and make sure that you use a third party firewall and AV solution.

 

[Urwumpe]

The state of lower saxony pays a few million Euros now for extending the support for XP for its computers until 2015, because the known IT service provider T-Systems failed the transition project.

Here, I run Windows 7 and Windows 8.1 ...

 

[TMac3000]

My reaction is laughter.

 

[Dantassii]

I migrated 2 computers ago

My last computer had Vista and my current one purchased a little over a year ago has Win 7.

Dantassii
HUMONGOUS IMS shipbuilder

 

[Izack]

IIRC, this happened a year or two ago, eh? What am I thinking of? :huh:

 

[Hielor]

I haven't used XP on a daily basis in years.

 

[Pipcard]

 

[RisingFury]

Haven't used XP since I got my new computer. Wanted to make use of DirectX 11...

But I'll miss this system. It never got in the way of my work...