Zeitgeist Addendum Movie

[ar81]

I found this controversial documentary that you might find interesting.
http://dotsub.com/view/4cff20d5-f55b-4009-bb74-d04f8e907671
Is monetary system responsible for current world situation?

 

[GregBurch]

Peter Joseph (creator of Zeigeist): “Let’s make some soup.”
Me: “OK – good idea – I like soup!”
PJ: Soup is food, you make food in the kitchen, so let’s go to the kitchen.
Me: OK.
PJ: Let’s put everything in the kitchen into the soup.
Me: Everything?
PJ: Yeah – you make food in the kitchen. Everything in there is useful for making food, so let’s put it all in. It’s all related to making food, right?
Me: uhhh … OK.
PJ: Carrots.
Me: Ahh, good, carrots in the soup.
PJ: Peas.
Me:Mmmmh.
PJ: Hand me the soap.
Me: Soap?
PJ: Yeah, when you work in the kitchen, you have to use soap. And the kitchen is where you make food, right?
Me: Hmmm …
PJ: Here, let’s add these towels to the soup.
Me: Towels? Towels aren’t food!
PJ: They’re in the kitchen, right? Kitchen’s are for food! And look – the towels are white. Potatoes are white. They’re food.
Me: But ….
PJ: Let’s put some salt in.
Me: Ok – but not too much. Too much salt could be bad for you.
PJ: What are you talking about? The salt was right here in the kitchen – right next to the stove where we’re making the soup. And people often put salt in their food. [Pours all the salt into the soup.]
Me: Uhhhh ….
PJ: Take off your shoes – we need them for the soup.
Me: What? Shoes!?!? In soup???
PJ: Your shoes are right here in the kitchen – kitchen’s are for food! And you yourself brought them in here – you must agree that they belong in the soup! What – do you not want to make the soup?
Me: Well, yeah, but …

… after much effort and time …


PJ: There – the soup’s ready!
Me: Peter, no one’s going to be able to digest this soup!
PJ: Really? Oh, well, we’ll just put it on the Internet.
Me: I don’t think that will help – it’s just a mish-mash of a bunch of stuff that’s only related because it was all here in the kitchen.
PJ: Hmmm, maybe you’re right. I know! We’ll put some dramatic music into it.
Me: You think that’ll work?
PJ: It’s the Internet!

 

[ar81]

What is wrong with it?
I do not seem to get it, except from a perceived sense of irony.

 

[jedidia]

:rofl:

Seriously ar81, Zeitgeist is NOT a source you want to consult about anything at all other than amusement. It's a kitchen indeed, one where they cook quite a ruthless mixture of conspiracy theories

 

[Artlav]

Something is not right with that movie.
It starts with pretty much an informational white noise, the speaking one sounds like a robot, and the things he start to speak about is of a very obvious kind, then quote some relativistic statistics and common cliches used by anyone who is up to convincing someone to revolt. Too many therefores.

Followed by some obvious facts about monetary system in USA, some questionable statistics, no definite references on where the numbers come from.

Does not sound right, just like some of the conspiracy theorists often do.
It might be interesting for someone with a wide perspective, but your average USAman will just get zombed by it.

I only got thru first 10 minutes by now, so no comments on the actual things it wants to tell yet.

 

[ar81]

A friend of mine told me about it.
I always like to refute everything I see.
I do not like to believe in untested ideas.
An idea that can-t withstand some questioning is not a good idea.

What I do not like about the proposal is that it replaces monetary centered with a technology centered system.
So the hive they propose still does not serve human being, and those who control technology could control humans.

 

[GregBurch]

Peter Joseph (creator of Zeigeist): “Hey, great car!”
Me: “Thanks!”
PJ: I can tell you’re an independent kind of guy – you’ve done some modifications to that car.
Me: Yes – I started with a good base from a good company, but I’ve worked on it little by little and it’s a lot faster than it was when I first bought it.
PJ: Opened up the breathing, huh?
Me: Yep – more air flow in and less restrictive exhaust. That really pumps up the power!
PJ: Well, you could do more – it could go a lot faster. Here, let’s just take that air filter off completely.
Me: Wait! I don’t know if that’s a good idea.
PJ: You want the car to go faster, right?
Me: Well, yeah, but …
PJ: More air, more power, right?
Me: I guess …
PJ: And what about this exhaust system – now that we’ve opened up the intake, why not get rid of that?
Me: Uhhh, I think my neighbors already get annoyed sometimes with that system I have on there.
PJ: Don’t you want to beat Ferraris?
Me: Well, Yeah – But I can already outrun a lot of them …
PJ: But there are still some that are faster than your car – here, let’s get rid of this exhaust system.
Me: Peter, I’m not sure this is a good idea …
PJ: Hey, this is about performance, isn’t it? Performance is speed, isn't it?
Me: Hmmm, I guess so …
PJ: And look, you’re just running on straight gasoline. Let’s put a nitrous system on this car.
Me: You know, those are kind of tricky. I’ve seen folks blow their motors up with them.
PJ: What kind of a hot-rodder are you? You need to OPEN UP!You need to push as much air and fuel as you can through that motor, right? Come on, I happen to have a can of nitrous right here, let’s just duct-tape it onto the intake manifold … yeah … like this … and what about weight – have you done anything to lighten up the car?
Me: Sure, see …
PJ: Well, I can see some things we can do right away. Look at those brakes, they weigh a lot, and they don’t make the car go any faster.
Me: Hang on a second! I need those!
PJ: You know, if I didn’t know better, I’d think you didn’t really want to beat those Lamborghinis.
Me: I actually kind of like Lambos. You know …
PJ: Whatever. Here, give me a hand, I’m going to change these tires to slicks.
Me: Peter, I have to drive this car in the rain sometimes …
PJ: Is it raining?
Me: No.
PJ: Exactly! Now – let’s go look for some Ferraris!

 

[Urwumpe]

Is monetary system responsible for current world situation?

Which situation? That I have no more scotch in my bar? I thought the problem was that I have just forgotten to look for a new bottle at the right time.

 

[ar81]

Now that you mention questionable stats... it mentions half of population living in poverty and figures show around 30%.

Probably I was too naive (and somehow asleep) so my judgement was not working properly, to spot the gaps and failures of a conspiracy theory.

I know that IMF/World bank had an incomplete macroeconomic model. But a different thing is to give those institutions a sense of evil purpose... Barney is the antichrist...?

That reminds me also the Columbia sacrifice theory. I think I could try to become a mythbuster... I love to put theories to the test to refute them.

 

[Artlav]

The feel of this movie is something like the difference between these 2 images:

Reality:

Zeitgeist:

There are some glimpses of the problems and insanities we actually have, but the mish-mash of the patterns in the movie makes any coherent ideas barely noticeable.

Resource-based economy is basically communism. That's the way people understand it, that's the way it is portrayed in the sci-fi stories, and the disasters that can come out of it is known in our history. It can not be enacted on our mostly perverted mankind out of the blue, we tried it, we largely failed.

Until the existing systems and rituals rote away by themselves, there will be no new world order.

It points on a lot of technologies, calling them feasible, while they are really only experimental, or being developed/theorized.
Remember the recent room-temperature superconductor discovery "sensation". Really, it could only work at -269C, and someone theorized, that it could be bettered up towards room-temperature.

It points at the oil companies conspiracies and governmental conspiracies as the explanation for laws of physics and limits of knowledge.
It disregards the impossibility of any intelligent action, especially conspiracy, by a government structure.
It completely ignores the possibility of a far sinister reasons for what he called the money=debt scam, the non-intentional origin of it, as well as much simpler reasons for it, known as legislation singularity theory, where the amount of laws is so big that no one can work out the effect of them.

We are not ready to break-free, we still need to evolve towards it.
Maybe 30 centuries, maybe 30 years, maybe 30 days, maybe a heartbeat away, but not now, not yet, not until we as a whole get there.

If someone is interested why i think this way or that way, the question will cause the answer.

Is monetary system responsible for current world situation?

I am convinced that no two people are able to understand things the same way.
So, what situation are you talking about?



.

 

[ar81]

Transition towards "resource based economy" was not clear to me, and even the concept of such economy is not clear, since if you have no money, how do you have measurable economy? How will it work without money?

So it is like saying "let's live on Mars, since your city is polluted".
But it happens that living on Mars pose some problems, and moving from your city to Mars requires a transition that remains unclear. Those theorists make it look like it was easy.

I needed to question those ideas because you do not know if zeitgeist is another scientology-like sect. That reminds me an american sect that had a leader who wrote "forth international theory" in the 1970s, where he praised Khaddaffi and he like them and invited them to Lybia, but his sect had such a sexual behavior that Lybia ended up throwing them out. That american sect acted here.
Later, the author of such theory was accused of abusing his daughter.

So when it is about believing in new ideas I add a bit of salt and look for people who can refute.
I do not like to eat pristine ideas. I prefer to cook it under the fire of criticism and if it evaporates, then it had no substance.

Considering the arguments, it looks like this video was written by a leftist who never had the decency of meeting russians or even Russia, to learn from historical failures. It is like living today, thinking that Don Quixote armor is Ok to fight a windmill or a wind energy collector.

EDIT:
It is curious...
A guy who worked at the local stock market told me that he did not like the fact that the link had CIA acronym there... I did not notice? I did not find any. Is this some kind of underground political material? I just wonder. I am not interested in controversy.

And you bet that as soon as I can see the friend who emailed me the link to that movie, I will ask my 2 hours back, as well as he might see me yelling him for making me lose time asking about how right or wrong this video was.

 

[RisingFury]

It's a kitchen indeed, one where they cook quite a ruthless mixture of conspiracy theories

And all of them flawed in one way or the other...

 

[Jarvitä]

$deity, not this again...

 

[ar81]

I got a comment on how the movie presents it as "intentional plot".

I then recalled I have met Eduadro Doryan in the past, who was in charge of World Bank for some time. If he was so power thirsty man, he would not be working in such untamed institution as health sector in my country. Commanding 40,000 workers is hardly similar to the dreams of a man who wants to rule the world. So if a man who was leading the institution was not after "intentonal plots", the whole plot of "intentional plots" falls and breaks...


-----Posted Added-----


I did some extra research.
My current conclusion : Zeitgeist is a conspiracy theory.

Zeitgeist movie does not provide any source.
Here some links from World Bank

http://devdata.worldbank.org/wdi2005/Section1.htm

Many poor countries, lacking the resources to finance their development, burdened by unsustainable levels of debt, and unable to compete in the global marketplace, need assistance from rich countries.

World bank agrees in the point of countries having debt.
If debt was a tool for domination, they should try to make countries to have more debt, not the opposite.
But they had it even before IMF and World Bank came along.

You can see in the following link, that venezuela has 31.3% of poverty and it has oil, and Costa Rica has 22% of poverty and has no oil and it has a better health system than even US. Since Venezuela detached from World Bank and IMF long ago, they should be better, specially considering that Venezuela has oil money and years of controlling its economy, since they have no "debt" that enslaves them to "IMF/World Bank domination plot".

Bolivia, which is ally of Chaves, has 63% of poverty.

http://devdata.worldbank.org/wdi2005/Section2.htm

So if debt was a tool for domination Venezuela should be an example for the world.

 

[cjp]

I actually watched the entire movie. While watching, I was summing up things to post here. When I came back here, I found that most things have already been said. My reactions varied like this:

OK, let's see what this is about
Hey, I've seen this in another internet movie before
Okay, you just don't seem to understand it, just like that other movie
When you started, it made sense, but now you're exaggerating
This has nothing to do with the previous topic
Hey, this might actually make sense
But now you're turning it into a new conspiracy theory again!
LOL, you think technology is the solution. That's what I used to think: that's why I went into technology. But now I'm not so sure about that. I've seen a lot of evil.
WHAT are you proposing? Who are you? Some kind of sect?
Wait a minute... putting it in other words, you want to abuse the economic crisis to gain control of America?
And you say democracy is all bull?
​

These people could be dangerous when taken seriously. A system without laws? They think that's going to work? I found a quote on Wikipedia that kind of explains in a very mild way what I think about that: "this program does NOT offer a cure. It offers a mega dose of the disease itself" (G. Edward Griffin, author of The Creature from Jekyll Island).

Human beings are not good by nature. They are greedy and selfish. It is a similarity between many ideologies and religions that they think humans are good by nature, or at least are mentally strong enough to overcome their evil nature. (Christianity is an exception (at least my flavor of Christianity is), and I don't count capitalism as an ideology). There may be some good in human beings, but evil will never cease to exist in this world. The problem with technology is that even when it can give sufficient prosperity to all without the need for "paid slavery", people will always need more, and they will work for more, and in the end develop more technology and even then continue to work. In the end, this will always have to lead to an unsustainable system. Any growth is unsustainable in the long term.

I once proposed, in an only partially serious mood, to bring in another force to oppose the force of greed: laziness. If only people were lazy enough to accept their current situation, we would no longer need growth. If it were strong enough to oppose greed, technology could give us a nearly sustainable world with enough prosperity for all.

And how about this "economic hitman" theory? Sounds to me like it makes sense. Not that it is necessarily true for all the examples they gave, but at least it sounds plausible enough to investigate the possibility.

 

[jedidia]

I once proposed, in an only partially serious mood, to bring in another force to oppose the force of greed: laziness. If only people were lazy enough to accept their current situation, we would no longer need growth. If it were strong enough to oppose greed, technology could give us a nearly sustainable world with enough prosperity for all.

:rofl:

A nice Idea, but I'm afraid (not really afraid actually, I think it's one of the better sides of man) growth is a perfectly normal human desire. The problem might be that they trample others down to accelerate their growth rather than growing all together. Laziness is a nice thing when taken in measures, but don't forget: Who does not want to work must not eat!

Since I'm working in social developement, I wouldn't think about encouraging lazines for a second... not in most countries (I don't want them to work at the sick speed we got in switzerland either, of course...)

 

[ar81]

These people could be dangerous when taken seriously.

Indeed I found this movie was the most artistic scam I have ever seen in the net. To me it combines the best techniques of manipulation used by sects and politicians.
And it could convince an uninformed audience who likes to absorb other people's ideas without questioning them.

I once proposed, in an only partially serious mood, to bring in another force to oppose the force of greed: laziness. If only people were lazy enough to accept their current situation, we would no longer need growth. If it were strong enough to oppose greed, technology could give us a nearly sustainable world with enough prosperity for all.

The contradiction I find is that it says that in monetary system people are not important, while in a technology centered social structure, technology would be more important than people. It disappointed me when he said "technology". Yeah... they had to be from developed countries. In USA have more medical technology than in Costa Rica and still Costa Rica has a better health system. The problem is most of Americans can't afford the technology.

I live in a country that has less technology than developed countries. I lived a low tech live in the first years of my life, when I could not even afford a cheap toy because my parents were poor.

So if you tell me that technology would solve my problems I would seriously question the access to technology in the so called society they present. Also, those who control technology could be an invisible hand in such a world without government.

A world without specialists... imagine anyone playing doctor.
FAA would have a hard time regulating air daredevils over the city.

A world with technology... a subterranean train instead of planes... pieces get rusty in the sea, under surface you have earthquakes when travelling from California to Tokio. I just can imagine train pipeline being flooded with seawater or magnetic rail broken by an earthquake.