Discussion Will the SpaceX push to reusability make ArianeSpace obsolete?

Hlynkacg

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If you look carefully you can see that the shocks have three segments and nest into the legs. seeing as they are gas operated rather than hydraulic minimum length is far shorter than I think you're giving credit for.

better image of the leg itself here...

Z5.jpg
 

Urwumpe

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If you look carefully you can see that the shocks have three segments and nest into the legs.

I actually counted four segments... and one segment (which has to be only slightly shorter than for hydraulics) is already so long that the landing gear would need to stick out during launch.
 

Hlynkacg

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It's hard to get exact proportions from these pic but so long as the longest strut segment is no longer than the track/channel cut into the leg itself it should be able to fold flush and a fairing for the upper portion of the strut could extend that even further.
 

Urwumpe

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It's hard to get exact proportions from these pic but so long as the longest strut segment is no longer than the track/channel cut into the leg itself it should be able to fold flush and a fairing for the upper portion of the strut could extend that even further.

Well, the camera is about at the height of the lower gimbal and the angle to the camera is very roughly 45° for each landing gear leg.

Means, a simple multiplication by sqrt(2) along the X-axis projects the landing gear back into normal position.
 

andochoa

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Hi, searching a bit more I found this pic (copyrighted by Texas-JIM) where you can see clearly the four telescopic segments that in the collapsed configuration fits within the hollow you can see in the pic of the leg at the factory's floor.
 

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Dantassii

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Food for thought

If someone had asked the Wright brothers 15 minutes after their 1st successful flight when an aircraft like the Boeing 747 would be built, or 1 hour after their 2nd flight when an aircraft like the Concord would be built, or 1 day after their 3rd flight when an air/spacecraft like the Space Shuttle would be built, that's where I see the current reusable launch vehicle industry right now.

There has to be schedules or nothing gets done, but to claim that a schedule is locked in stone and if it slips even 1 hour it is a total failure to schedule properly is totally unrealistic.

Space flight is not easy, it's called Rocket Science for a reason. But you have to have schedules so that you know when all the components have to meet at the launch pad for the next launch.

When building rockets that work as advertized becomes as easy as building a 747 we still will see schedules slip, because even building a 747 can slip its schedule if something doesn't work exactly right.

Also, if there was 1 perfect type of airplane, then that's the only airplane that would be built. But we have dozens of unique airplanes flying and making profit for the companies that fly them. I suspect that there are an order of magnitude more variations on the theme for launch vehicles and manned space craft as there are to the theme of a profitable commercial aircraft. We have not begun to scratch the surface on what human imagination will come up with.

I suspect that the first successful (read profitable) manned commercial space vehicle to leave LEO will be as different from the manned space vehicles we have today as Leonardo's flight vehicles are from the supersonic Concord or the massive 747's and 380's of today.

Dantassii
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Urwumpe

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Now used the lunch break to do some geometry on the landing gear:

To have the lengths add up properly, we would need to watch the forward right leg (from our view) in a 49° angle right from the view line. This does not work - the forward left leg would then be in a 41° angle left from the view line, and the back right leg in a 139° angle.

(As you can see, the forward left leg is longer in the projection)

At all other angles, there would be too much actuator left for retracting the leg before launch.

Either: This landing gear leg is not meant for being retracted during launch - the actual flight article needs a shorter landing gear leg
Or: The landing gear is asymmetric and not four equally shaped legs.
 

Urwumpe

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While I admit I could be less sarcastic, basic facts are same: Skylon is at powerpoint stage and slips like everyone else.

Actually not. The whole system is at powerpoint stage, just like the Falcon Heavy or a Martian Dragon.

But the key components are not, the helium precooler, the component with the biggest technological risk, recently managed to pass the tests right on time.

So, in R&D terms, the Skylon is perfectly on track. Yes, it is a low temperature and slow R&D. But it progresses with only minor disturbances.

The successful precooler test resulted in the British Government investing 72 million € and ESA providing 8.4 million € for the development of a full SABRE engine prototype between 2014 and 2016, which will cost 240 million €.
 
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RGClark

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Further on the controversy surrounding the Ariane 6 development:

Woerner Urges ESA To Scrap Favored Ariane 6 Design.
By Peter B. de Selding | Mar. 19, 2014
http://www.spacenews.com/article/civil-space/39918woerner-urges-esa-to-scrap-favored-ariane-6-design

Woerner is the head of the German space agency. As he has said before he prefers a liquid-fueled version of the first stage of the Ariane 6. He also suggested the current plan with all solid lower stages might be difficult to get German support.

Another report discusses the difficulty of financing from the French point of view:

Questions Swirl around Future of Europe’s Ariane Launcher Program.
By Peter B. de Selding | Mar. 18, 2014
http://www.spacenews.com/article/la...nd-future-of-europe’s-ariane-launcher-program

An additional issue is that France's Air Liquide which constructs the Ariane 5's cryogenic core stage has been arguing for a cryogenic first stage of the Ariane 6.


Bob Clark
 

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Not really surprising... but I really would prefer they would stick to their decisions, even if they don't like the compromises.
 

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RGClark

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No new price pressure... if a customer asks me, how much I would like to spend for a Porsche, I would also say 10 Euro and we all laugh....

More like the customer wants a Chevy and the seller only offers Porsches.
The customer is more likely to buy the Chevy from a different seller.

Bob Clark
 

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More like the customer wants a Chevy and the seller only offers Porsches.
The customer is more likely to buy the Chevy from a different seller.

Bob Clark

The Problem is: The customer in your article talks about rather buying a Chevy than a Porsche, but in reality always wants this Chevy to drive like a Porsche.

Or in less mysterious words: The claim, that satellites will become lighter by using electrostatic stationkeeping is opposite to the trend in communication satellite design, that the longer lifetime of satellites by electrostatic propulsion systems requires them to be launched with more payload (transponders), because transponders may fail in space like any analogue circuit after some years, and that additionally to the trend to build bigger satellites busses with more commercial payload because they are more effective in terms of economics. Once it is launched, a twice as heavy satellite does not cost more money than a lighter satellite, but carries about 3 times more payload. And satellites with electrostatic stationkeeping need much bigger and much heavier solar arrays and EPS components anyway, to produce enough electricity for stationkeeping at EOL.

Also, I really recommend you to study the statements of the satellite operators when the Ariane 5 was in development 20 years ago. You might find some parallels.

SpaceX has already the big problem, that they can only launch about 30% of the satellites that are planned to be launched, with the Falcon 9. They need the Falcon Heavy, which is currently lost in development hell. There is the sudden increase of the Falcon Heavy performance from 12 to 20 tons to GTO without any change in the LEO performance (which is pretty doubtful since they could only do that by reducing dry mass) last year, while also halving the launch costs (Remember the trinity of performance, costs and quality... if you increase performance and costs, what would you have to reduce...) First commercial launch of the Falcon Heavy will currently happen about at the same time as the first launch of the Ariane 5 ME. The Ariane 5 ME is scheduled for 2018, the Falcon Heavy is now announced to start commercial flights in 2017... since we are talking about SpaceX, expect 2020.

Old wisdom of software developers: Listen carefully what the customer tells you, what he wants. And then produce, what he really meant.

A much better analysis of the real situation there:

http://seradata.com/SSI/2014/03/ana...ane-5-meariane-6-eurofudge-starts-to-unravel/

Though the author is pretty superficial in many aspects (Especially the Eurofighter analogy - how much worth has a more sexy looking F-22, if that does only fly for air shows? In the end, it had always been the ugly ducklings that did the business, like Hurricane, Thud, A-10,B-52, Eurofighter).
 
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RGClark

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According to this author the recently announced Airbus-Safran conglomeration is proposing a liquid-fueled version of the Ariane 6:

Airbus DS and Safran form joint launch vehicle production company to save on Ariane costs.
by David Todd on 27 June, 2014 in commercial launch services, ESA, Technology
http://seradata.com/SSI/2014/06/air...e-production-company-to-save-on-ariane-costs/

However, this Spacenews article just says their proposal uses "more liquid" propulsion:

Airbus, Safran Surprise ESA with Last-minute Ariane 6 Design.
By Peter B. de Selding | Jun. 30, 2014
http://www.spacenews.com/article/la...surprise-esa-with-last-minute-ariane-6-design

In any case, the change came about because of pressure from their customers:

Airbus Defends Springing Last-minute Ariane 6 Design on ESA.
By Peter B. de Selding | Jul. 2, 2014
http://www.spacenews.com/article/la...-springing-last-minute-ariane-6-design-on-esa

Heavyweight SES Leans on Europe To Meet SpaceX Launch Prices.
By Peter B. de Selding | Jun. 27, 2014
http://www.spacenews.com/article/sa...-leans-on-europe-to-meet-spacex-launch-prices

Bob Clark
 

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This article says the Airbus-Safran proposal for the Ariane 6 would use the Ariane 5 core but with two to four smaller strap-on solids, about half-size of the Ariane 5's strap-ons:

ESA Ministerial in Doubt as France, Germany Remain Far Apart on Future Launcher.
By Peter B. de Selding | Sep. 8, 2014
The Airbus-Safran proposal says this vehicle could be built and launched for 80 million euros assuming 10 launches per year. For lighter payloads of the sort often launched by European governments, the core vehicle would use two strap-on boosters in a version called Ariane 62.
A heavier Ariane 64 variant would be used to orbit commercial payloads weighing up to 11,000 kilograms. The core would be augmented with four of the same strap-on boosters, each carrying 120,000 kilograms of solid propellant.
http://www.spacenews.com/article/la...-as-france-germany-remain-far-apart-on-future


Bob Clark
 

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Urwumpe

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Google translator is really funny when confronted with German language ruined by Welt journalists. :lol:

Try it with "Airbus will launch the recyclable rocket into orbit".

Really interesting in the whole article is only this:

http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20130087659
 
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