Rant The hypocrisy of Jobs

[Jarvitä]

First off, I'd just like to say I've decided not to post this in the other Jobs thread out of respect I have for the man as an innovator. However, I feel this needed to be said.

First, thinking in the long term, Steve Jobs claims to be an avowed deathist, claiming death is "the best invention of life". This happens to be a position I strongly and completely disagree with, but it's pretty "mainstream", so I guess it could be forgiven on its own, but...

Secondly, after being diagnosed with early stage, treatable cancer, he decided, against medical evidence and very expensive medical advice, to pursue alternative "treatment", a diet which ruined his liver.

Thirdly, he stole a liver transplant with his gigantic pile of money, probably costing another person their life, even though at that point he and his doctors knew he was going to die, just so he could live another couple of years - this in spite of his previously declared deathism.

I'm sorry, but I think I've lost all respect I had for him as a human being. If you're going to preach death is good, kindly die and make way for people who think otherwise.

This also proves something else: When your life is at stake, people in general, no matter their beliefs, tend to quickly convert to radical humanists.

The really big story, so far largely unexploited by the media, is that Jobs got a liver transplant and got it here in the US. This just does not happen in patients with his Dx and prognosis - not since Mickey Mantle, anyway. And his outcome was exactly as was predicted. This infuriates those 'in the know' in the transplant community, because you have only to look to guys like Jim Neighbors, Larry Hagman, or even Larry Kramer who got livers many years or even a decade or two ago, and who continue not only to survive, but to do well. To put the liver of a 25-year old into a ~54 year old man with metastatic neuroendocrine pancreatic cancer violates the established protocols of just about every transplant center in the US.

I find it more than a little hypocritical that Jobs, who spoke so glowingly of the utility of death for others, used every bit of medical technology AND his considerable wealth and influence, to postpone it for it himself, including the expedient of taking a GIFT, given with the sole intention of its being used to provide genuinely life saving benefit (not a futile exercise in medical care) and squandering it on a doomed attempt to save his own life. If you have the temerity to stand before the entire population of this planet and proclaim the goodness of death, then you should have the balls to accept it - especially when your own warped, erroneous and IRRATIONAL decision making was the proximate cause of your own dying. Instead, Jobs chose to grasp at straws, take a gift from a dead man and his family, given in good faith, and squander it on his own lust for more of the very thing (life) that he has publicly proclaimed it is a second best to "Death (which) is very likely the single best invention of life."

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/New_Cryonet/message/1051

 

[Urwumpe]

Well, you are right - it is not fair and highly egoistical.

But I do know: In his position and situation, I would have done the same.

 

[Jarvitä]

In his own position and situation, I would not have preached death, and I would have taken the medical advice I paid for.

 

[MikeB]

I think you missed part of his message. He didn't say that anyone should die, or should want to die. He said, "Death is the destination we all share, no one has ever escaped it. And that is as it should be because death is very likely the single best invention of life. ... Your time is limited, so don't waste it living someone else's life. Don't be trapped by dogma — which is living with the results of other people's thinking. Don't let the noise of others' opinions drown out your own inner voice. And most important, have the courage to follow your heart and intuition. They somehow already know what you truly want to become. Everything else is secondary. ... Remembering that I'll be dead soon is the most important tool I've ever encountered to help me make the big choices in life. Because almost everything — all external expectations, all pride, all fear of embarrassment or failure — these things just fall away in the face of death, leaving only what is truly important. Remembering that you are going to die is the best way I know to avoid the trap of thinking you have something to lose. You are already naked. There is no reason not to follow your heart."

He also said, "No one wants to die. Even people who wanna go to heaven don't wanna die to get there."

Also, he didn't "STEAL" a liver transplant; he used his money and influence to buy it, as rich people do. He also used his money and influence to pass legislation in California to make organ transplants more accessible to more people.

 

[T.Neo]

I wonder. If anyone here needed an organ transplant to save their life, what would they do about it? Would you use "money and influence", if you could?

 

[jedidia]

Would you use "money and influence", if you could?

Since I have neither, that's pretty much impossible to guess. By my principles and believs, I wouldn't, but they have yet to face the ultimate test. If at that time I still don't have money nor influence (as I'd expect), it will certainly be a lot easier to pass. "Verily, I say to you, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle......"

 

[Ghostrider]

Deathist? Can one be Otherdeathist (which means, a strong supporter of other sods buying farms)?

Verily, I say to you, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle......"

You would be surprised at what you can achieve with a funnel and the right amount of shove.

 

[fsci123]

dude the man died... Have some respect and courtesy...

 

[T.Neo]

This is going off topic here, but I can think of ways to get a camel through the eye of a needle... but none of them are particularly nice to the camel.

Some might not be that nice to the needle, either.

 

[Jarvitä]

I wonder. If anyone here needed an organ transplant to save their life, what would they do about it? Would you use "money and influence", if you could?

His doctors knew he wasn't going to live. He didn't meet the requirements for the transplant. Shady business was involved, to say the least.

I think you missed part of his message. He didn't say that anyone should die, or should want to die. He said, "Death is the destination we all share, no one has ever escaped it. And that is as it should be because death is very likely the single best invention of life...

I'm not going to comment the rest of his speech, because it's mostly generic carpe-diem inspiration in a can.

No one has ever escaped death, except for the people alive. And we're the ones who still have a chance to escape it. Jobs' message to us is "don't bother". That isn't very inspirational, it's death worship, pure and simple. I don't consider my fate to be sealed, and I don't take kindly to people saying so.

 

[Urwumpe]

His doctors knew he wasn't going to live. He didn't meet the requirements for the transplant. Shady business was involved, to say the least.

Not really shady. Nobody ever said that you have to be poor to get transplants or have a good perspective to survive even without the transplant.

Also, from what I can tell as amateur and without knowing his medical history in detail, Steve Jobs perspective with the transplant wasn't that bad as you describe it. While the cancer had sparked liver metastases, the original cancer was thought to be defeated with the earlier surgery. he was only 54 when he got his transplant, even if he would not have been Steve Jobs and applied anonymously for the transplant, the chance would have been high that he got it.

When he got his transplant, nobody expected that Jobs would only life 2.5 years with it. It could easily have been 25 years (he survived already for 5 years at this point with a cancer that usually leaves you only months to live without such radical surgery as Jobs did). And that would have been 25 years as somebody would is otherwise the ideal transplant receiver. No addictions, no other threats to his health except his job... perfect. Him being Vegan is not that optimal, but for adults, it is no dangerous lifestyle. Vegan childhood is life threatening on the other hand.

 

[Ghostrider]

His doctors knew he wasn't going to live. He didn't meet the requirements for the transplant. Shady business was involved, to say the least.

Do you have any evidence to support this claim?

And we're the ones who still have a chance to escape it.

How?

Jobs' message to us is "don't bother". That isn't very inspirational, it's death worship, pure and simple.

No, it's simply acceptance which is a very Buddhist thing: you can't escape death, so make the most out of your life. If there's any hypocrisy in that, is the face that a good lot of people will never be able to do that because they don't have the money or the influence, so they'll have to slave away every single day until they drop dead. That's something the kind of Jobs don't seem to get.

I don't consider my fate to be sealed, and I don't take kindly to people saying so.

What's so wrong about being mortal?

 

[T.Neo]

How?

By waiting for the Machine Rapture to take us all to Computer Heaven...

 

[Jarvitä]

What's so wrong about being mortal?

The fact that you might stop existing one day? I don't know about you, but I like existing.

How?

If we knew how already, this argument wouldn't really be necessary, and people who preach death would be seen as the wacky cultist side, not those of us who refuse to see it as an inevitability.

 

[Urwumpe]

The fact that you might stop existing one day? I don't know about you, but I like existing.

yes, but your will doesn't matter: What ever you do or decide, you will die. And you will take nothing with you.

 

[Ghostrider]

And you will take nothing with you.

One thing about the last trip, you get to travel light and no TSA folks will feel you up.

If we knew how already, this argument wouldn't really be necessary, and people who preach death would be seen as the wacky cultist side, not those of us who refuse to see it as an inevitability.

And if my grandfather had been fitted with wheels, he would have been Finn McMissile.

 

[dgatsoulis]

not those of us who refuse to see it as an inevitability.

If you mean that in a physical sense, that perhaps in the next few decades, death will be treated as a disease and maybe even eradicated, then my hat's off to you sir. I've "heard" about some studies that are actually trying to do that , but i don't know of any links to them.

I understand that the average life expectancy has gone radically "up" in the last century and will reach even higher levels in this one, but one has to consider all the variants.

The first one that comes to my mind is the number of nowadays treatable diseases for children. (especially vaccinations).
The second one is people vs available resources.
The third one is longevity vs life quality.

I'll add a colourful music video to this discussion

I'd really want to be around when the first ship to Epsilon Eridani departs, (heck, i'd like to be IN it) but i don't think i will. (Of course, i could "Walt Disney-ed" my way into some obscure future, but i don't think that placing my brain - a few minutes after it stops functioning- in a vessel full of liquid nitrogen, will do the trick.

 

[Jarvitä]

Of course, i could "Walt Disney-ed" my way into some obscure future, but i don't think that placing my brain - a few minutes after it stops functioning- in a vessel full of liquid nitrogen, will do the trick.

As a last resort, it still beats rotting in the ground or getting cremated as far as reanimation prospects are concerned. And cryonic suspension today is within the reach of an average middle-class employee, if you finance it with your life insurance.

 

[Urwumpe]

I don't mind getting a proper burial... of course, together with my defeated enemies, so they will be my servants in afterlife...

 

[BusDriver]

One thing about the last trip, you get to travel light and no TSA folks will feel you up.

No wonder he talked about death... sounds like the best trip you can have!:lol: