News The dress color controversy.

[Andy44]

It's not the dress itself, it's the technical discussion about cameras and how we perceive color.

It is pretty random that of all the zillions of photos on the internet this particular one is the one that suddenly brings the subject into public conversation.

There is another technical discussion lurking here concerning how some things go viral and others do not, and the whole social structure of the internet, blah blah blah...

 

[Gerdih]

It just drives me crazy how people can waste their time on this, on facebook for example, even my friends.

One of them studied about photography and image editing, he was the most intrigued by the pic, wondering which color it was when the answer is very clear.

Anyway, internet have this things, isnt it?

 

[ISProgram]

I thought this forum was bettet than this... am I the only one who doesn't care at all about that darn dress?

Okay, my take on this.

...

(insert title of thread) is stupid.

No. :thumbup:

I do find it interesting how fast this thing became viral. Like less than eight hours, which gives credence to just how fast inter-computer communications is right now.

 

[Astro SG Wise]

It's got to be gold and white.

 

[Linguofreak]

There are some advantages to using big, interchanging filters.

Interestingly, shortly before I saw the portion of this thread talking about camera filters, I was musing on an interesting idea for an alien race in a Sci-fi setting:

Their retinas can't distinguish color, but they have eyes with multiple nicitating membranes, or multiple pairs of eyes with one membrane per eye, or some combination of the two, and each membrane is tinted differently. In low light conditions, they pull the membranes clear of the eyes. When there's sufficient light, and they need color information, they blink the membranes, or hold them closed, and their brains automatically combine the images from eyes with different membranes closed (or the same eye as it switches membranes) to produce a color image.

 

[Unstung]

Spacecraft use more than red, green, and blue filters. Infrared light is important to geology, in photos it can give an idea of an area's mineralogical composition. Being able to see ultraviolet light also has its purpose on planetary spacecraft. However, not all spacecraft rely on filter wheels to simulate color. The MastCams and MAHLI on Curiosity have Bayer filters.

Although a Bayer pattern is used on the MastCam sensors (CCDs), the sensors are still sensitive enough overall that filter wheels are used. Sensitivity to infrared light is particularly important. Curiosity can see a lot more than the human eye, and its sensitivity and the usefulness of its filters are apparent in the image below.

From the graph, it's possible to see that the science filters are not made to provide a visible light depiction of a scene that is similar to white the human eye sees. In fact, Curiosity is the only spacecraft I know that uses Bayer filters like consumer cameras. However, (most) consumer cameras have filters in front of their sensors to block ultraviolet and infrared light. This is obviously not good for a science mission.

The topic got a bit off the dress and more into the perception of colors, and my previous experience with Opportunity is somewhat relevant to how digital cameras see. (I wanted to dig this post up so I don't lose it.)

The photo at the top of the article is actually an example of what I calibrate, although I haven't worked with the images that were processed into that particular photograph. It was color calibrated and inspected by others before I got this position. The photograph was taken on Sol 3262 and can be seen in its original location on this webpage: http://pancam.astro.cornell.edu/pancam_instrument/false_color66.html

That being said, it's exciting when articles describe stuff I see every week. I worked with photos taken on the same Sol as the following image, and the rocks in the image look like they have some clays:

If you check the title, it's a false color image from Sol 3317. It used the left camera and filters 2, 5, and 7 (L257). I can't remember which wavelengths the filters are, but for reference the MERs have 8 filters ranging from IR to UV.

Sometimes the use of filters to simulate color is obvious.

Also, filter wheels on spacecraft are pretty compact. They are placed within the lens, in front of a small CCD. Circular filter wheels are easily visible on each MER Pancam.

 

[jedidia]

Not only just a digital camera, there is a world of difference between a projected image and a reflected image. The image shown on the computer monitor rarely equals the printout held in the hand.

That reminds me of a story from my wife, who worked in printed media for years.

In short, the customer complained that the company logo didn't look as shiny (literally) on paper as it looked on the monitor... :lol:

 

[PhantomCruiser]

Probably not as easy to see with the lights off either?

 

[TMac3000]

The thread title sounds like a Big Bang Theory episode

 

[Hielor]

I provided the following facebook status a couple days ago:

It's white and gold, and it's the reason that the Stormcloaks are rebelling against the Empire.
http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:White-Gold_Concordat

I also just realized that I missed the perfect opportunity to make a dress reference in a bug I filed at work over the weekend... something was black on dark blue, so I filed a bug on the lack of contrast, but I totally should've made a reference to it being white/gold (or maybe suggesting that white/gold would look better)... Oh well.

 

[palebluevoice]

I thought this forum was bettet than this... am I the only one who doesn't care at all about that darn dress?

Oh, psssh. You automatically assume it's insignificant because it's popular and it's a piece of women's clothing. If you would read the thread, you would see that there's several scientific articles and videos analyzing the subject from the perspective of biology, computer science, and physics. There are people posing various thought experiments, etc. You're not more intelligent than the rest of the world because you're refusing to read into a subject over superficial reasons.

Remember, the Fibonacci sequence came about from Fibonacci's attempt to model rabbit populations, under the assumption that the rabbits were immortal. That's pretty silly too.

 

[MattBaker]

under the assumption that the rabbits were immoral.

I hope this was meant to be "immortal" because I'm not sure if it was common to hold rabbits to moral considerations back then. Although they probably didn't go to church enough...

 

[Andy44]

Never trust a rabbit. They can be pretty crafty.

 

[statickid]

That is to say... "pwitty cwafty"huhuhuhuhhuhuh

 

[Linguofreak]

I hope this was meant to be "immortal" because I'm not sure if it was common to hold rabbits to moral considerations back then. Although they probably didn't go to church enough...

Considering rabbit's proverbial penchant for breeding quickly...

 

[Quick_Nick]

However this is probably the reason we dont have any color dust devil photos.

I'm not saying this counters what you said in any way (this is probably very artificially colored) but I thought it was too appropriate to not post:
http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap150303.html

 

[RGClark]

Interestingly, shortly before I saw the portion of this thread talking about camera filters, I was musing on an interesting idea for an alien race in a Sci-fi setting:
Their retinas can't distinguish color, but they have eyes with multiple nicitating membranes, or multiple pairs of eyes with one membrane per eye, or some combination of the two, and each membrane is tinted differently. In low light conditions, they pull the membranes clear of the eyes. When there's sufficient light, and they need color information, they blink the membranes, or hold them closed, and their brains automatically combine the images from eyes with different membranes closed (or the same eye as it switches membranes) to produce a color image.

Under the hypothesis, that some people are better at making color corrections under bright illumination I wondered if this might also be true under the reverse scenario.

Notice how difficult it is to make color distinctions under low illumination, like trying to tell the color of a car at night. Frequently, the best you can say is, "It's some dark color." Are some people better able to make such color discriminations at night?

Bob Clark

 

[RGClark]

...
Although a Bayer pattern is used on the MastCam sensors (CCDs), the sensors are still sensitive enough overall that filter wheels are used. Sensitivity to infrared light is particularly important. Curiosity can see a lot more than the human eye, and its sensitivity and the usefulness of its filters are apparent in the image below.

From the graph, it's possible to see that the science filters are not made to provide a visible light depiction of a scene that is similar to white the human eye sees. In fact, Curiosity is the only spacecraft I know that uses Bayer filters like consumer cameras. However, (most) consumer cameras have filters in front of their sensors to block ultraviolet and infrared light. This is obviously not good for a science mission.
The topic got a bit off the dress and more into the perception of colors, and my previous experience with Opportunity is somewhat relevant to how digital cameras see. (I wanted to dig this post up so I don't lose it.)

Actually, that WAS the topic of my post.

Thanks for that info about the color imagers on Mars Curiosity. Perhaps it was in response to the publics reaction to the earlier "true color" images of Mars released by NASA. Perhaps some Mars scientists also were not satisfied with those earlier color images.

As an example take a look at the "true color" image below released by NASA, taken by Mars Opportunity. The colors just look "off".

Bob Clark

 

[fsci123]

I was looking through some old pictures... And I found a photo I took of some bathroom graffiti and I realized I had did the color balance effect a couple months ago.

 

[RGClark]

For those still interested in the dress, some papers discussing it as an issue in the psychology of human vision:

The Science Behind the Dress.
By NICHOLAS ST. FLEUR
MAY 14, 2015
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/15/science/the-science-behind-the-dress-color.html

Bob Clark