Question Rounding the Horn

[JonnyBGoode]

I was watching some of the re-imagined Battlestar Galactica series, where they often would run system status checks before making an FTL Jump. And on more the occasion they called it "rounding the horn."

I know the concept of launch status checks was a nod to the launch status checks from the Apollo era and maybe even before, and it's most likely also used in the military.

I also know the phrase originated from sailing vessels going around Cape Horn at the southern tip of Africa.

I'm wondering however if anyone can lend any insight into how the phrase "Let's go around the horn" came to be associated with a station status check like this. (I've heard it used in reference to this sort of status check long before watching BSG.)

Perhaps it was a shorthand for "let's make sure everything is stowed before doing this dangerous maneuver" and just got carried over into other things that were equally dangerous and needed double-checking beforehand?

Or perhaps it got muddled with "let's go around the room", and the change kinda stuck?

---------- Post added 07-25-20 at 01:25 AM ---------- Previous post was 07-24-20 at 11:05 PM ----------

Example in this clip, starting at around the 1 minute mark.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkxXhD-xDTE"]Battlestar Galactica | The Demetrius Jumps Back - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Marijn]

Rounding the Cape was a very significant event in multiple ways.

Gold en silver were mostly in demand in the Far East. But there was not much available in Europe. Ships had to load things which they could trade with settlements along the way to the Cape in order to get it. Cape Hope was the last chance to stock up the ship with the things which were actually in demand by traders in the Far East.

After rounding the Cape, ships wouldn't turn NE to the Sunda Strait which is the shortest route. It would mean crossing the equator three times in total, which is bad for the crew and supplies. Instead, ships would head in an easterly direction towards Australia, profiting from the Westerlies (winds) while staying in lower temperatures. Turning back was no option after this point.

The problem however was to turn north in time. In those days, there was no reliable way to measure longitude. Sailors used all kinds of tricks including counting remaining food supplies to determine their longitude which often failed. The many ship wrecks along the Australian coast were the result of this.

And if a mutiny was planned by conspiracing crew members, they would strike after rounding the Horn.

So all with all, at the Cape, captains had a lot of things to worry about. Everything needed to be checked and accounted for very carefully and thoroughly.

So your own suggestion seems the right one to me.

The chorus of a popular Dutch folk song 'Kaap'ren Varen' (Sail to the Cape) translates into "Men who want to round the Horn need to have beards". This is almost always explained as: 'Men need to be tough'. But the historical meaning of this song is more likely to have been addressed at their poor monthers: 'Please don't send your sons to the ports for work if they are too young (no beards). They will not survive'.

And while we're at it, some footage by drone of a replica of the most famous example of a doomned journey to the East, the wrecking of the VOC flagship Batavia on her maiden voyage in 1629, almost 150 years before James Cook set sail for the first time:

The ship was built by unskilled people who dropped out of society using authentic methods where possible. The project was meant to stimulate them to learn some craft. The project eventually collapsed, but not before the Batavia was towed to Australia to finally fulfill the critical part of the journey.

 

[4throck]

I interpret horn as a nickname for telephone or early intercom systems.
They looked a bit like horns in the early days.

A google search for "telephone horn" gives you this:

https://www.cepolina.com/telephone-horn-yellow.html

 

[llarian]

May I point out that some of you are confusing geography. Cape Horn is at the southern tip of South America. Cape of Good Hope is at the southern tip of Africa. Seems unlikely that "rounding the horn" is a reference to rounding the southern tip of Africa.

 

[Marijn]

May I point out that some of you are confusing geography. Cape Horn is at the southern tip of South America. Cape of Good Hope is at the southern tip of Africa. Seems unlikely that "rounding the horn" is a reference to rounding the southern tip of Africa.

Of course, you are correct. I'll change it.

 

[Urwumpe]

May I point out that some of you are confusing geography. Cape Horn is at the southern tip of South America. Cape of Good Hope is at the southern tip of Africa. Seems unlikely that "rounding the horn" is a reference to rounding the southern tip of Africa.

It is also important, because Cape Horn is still one of the biggest challenges for sailors, its also still a pretty tough ride if you have an engine under deck.



Rounding the horn the first time is an VERY important step in your life, maybe even more than crossing the equator.



The Cape of Good Hope on the other hand, is just a very important and prominent landmark, but not a big challenge to your seamanship. Its near the place where two currents meet, but never the place - this one is usually closer to Cape Agulhas. That region has some bad fog and very treacherous freak waves.

 

[llarian]

I didn't mean to sidetrack the discussion. "Going 'round the Horn" was always a difficult transit before the peacefulness of the Pacific. Perhaps this relates in the same way in the "systems" check prior to any difficult maneuver. Think in terms of getting to Mars and all of the mission failures there have been (more than one because some small detail was missed).

 

[Urwumpe]

I didn't mean to sidetrack the discussion. "Going 'round the Horn" was always a difficult transit before the peacefulness of the Pacific. Perhaps this relates in the same way in the "systems" check prior to any difficult maneuver. Think in terms of getting to Mars and all of the mission failures there have been (more than one because some small detail was missed).

Actually, the classic Clipper Route passage by Cape Horn is from west to east - it is the southmost cape of the route and the final waypoint you pass before going north again towards Europe - into calmer waters.



The southern Pacific is everything, but peaceful, most accidents and deaths during yacht races happen there, far away from the usual shipping lanes and humanity.

 

[kuddel]

The chorus of a popular Dutch folk song 'Kaap'ren Varen' (Sail to the Cape) translates into "Men who want to round the Horn need to have beards".

As far as I know 'Kaap'ren Varen' in that song has most probably not to do with the cape (neither cape horn nor cape of good hope), it most likely is referring to 'Kaapvaart' (NL), 'Kapern' (DE) 'Letter of marque' (EN).

See also the wikipedia article

 

[Urwumpe]

Or the German "Kaperfahrt".

 

[kuddel]

Yes 'Karpern' as verb of 'Kaperei'.
...and while going down the wikipedia rabbit-holes I found that "Die Ärzte" also did it

...guess you'll never stop learning :thumbup:

 

[JonnyBGoode]

May I point out that some of you are confusing geography. Cape Horn is at the southern tip of South America. Cape of Good Hope is at the southern tip of Africa. Seems unlikely that "rounding the horn" is a reference to rounding the southern tip of Africa.

You're right; I think I was half asleep when I wrote the original post.

---------- Post added at 04:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:04 PM ----------

I might also point out that the BSG examples are somewhat anachronistic, since they had never been to Earth and therefore knew nothing about Cape Horn. (Maybe there was a similar "horn" one one of the planets of the colonies?)

---------- Post added at 04:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:08 PM ----------

I got a lot more response to this question than I thought I would! ^_^

 

[paddy2]

Sorry but I have always thought of "going Round the Horn" was a reference to staff calling out checks, the "horn" being a loudspeaker. The most well known being the mission control for Apollo flights where each dept had to quote go or no go.

 

[JonnyBGoode]

No reason to be sorry?

Sometimes the weird ways that our language and slang morphs and transforms over time fascinates me. Phrases can take on entirely new meanings, and the original meanings can be completely lost.

 

[PhantomCruiser]

It is also important, because Cape Horn is still one of the biggest challenges for sailors, its also still a pretty tough ride if you have an engine under deck.



Rounding the horn the first time is an VERY important step in your life, maybe even more than crossing the equator.



The Cape of Good Hope on the other hand, is just a very important and prominent landmark, but not a big challenge to your seamanship. Its near the place where two currents meet, but never the place - this one is usually closer to Cape Agulhas. That region has some bad fog and very treacherous freak waves.

I just love the roaring 40's

 

[Marijn]

As far as I know 'Kaap'ren Varen' in that song has most probably not to do with the cape (neither cape horn nor cape of good hope), it most likely is referring to 'Kaapvaart' (NL), 'Kapern' (DE) 'Letter of marque' (EN).

See also the wikipedia article

That's quite possible. It's a very old song and many phrases are debated upon to this day.

But notice the word 'te' in the full name: 'Al die willen te kaap'ren varen'.

'Te' would translate in 'towards'. That makes me believe it's about a location.

 

[kuddel]

If I can believe the flag your account is presenting you are the native speaker :thumbup:

Still 'te' is not strict for the adverb 'towards' in a geographic sense.
Here for example it isn't : "te voet bereikbaar" or "iemand te hulp schieten"

But lets me not drift too far from the original topic here. I think we both can't say absolutely for sure what the "original" meaning was.

Doei!

 

[Marijn]

But lets me not drift too far from the original topic here. I think we both can't say absolutely for sure what the "original" meaning was.

Agreed, but it's just so interesting and you make a good point regarding 'te'. And not associating it with the southern point of Africa may be a bit safer for the statues too.

 

[Dickie]

I think it's common to use a phrase along the lines of "going around the room" to give everyone an option to raise any points or to confirm if they're happy with a decision. When I've heard it used by Gene Kranz in recordings, books or documentaries that seems to be the context, rather than referencing a specific major event. I've always assumed that he took the common use of "going around the room" which became the similar sounding "going around the horn" to just mean going around everybody for consent.


Also bearing in mind Gene Kranz was Air Force, I'm not sure how familiar he would be with the nautical background to make it a specific reference. That said, it's also possible he recognised when something hazardous and challenging was about to take place and was trying to sound like a sailor to feel more confident...!