Internet Privacy may be a victim in cyberdefense plan

Linguofreak

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I'm more concerned with what the government does *after* it's done its snooping around than if it's snooping around. I'm not guilty of anything currently criminal (at least, I don't think so. Figuring out what (if any) copyright laws apply when watching a Youtube video is somewhat of a hornets' nest). What I'm really worried about is the possibility of future illegalization of actions I feel morally obligated to perform, or positions I feel morally obligated to hold.
 

Andy44

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Being a criminal's got nothing to do with it, anymore.

Being on the wrong list does.

Take the "no fly" list for instance. The government has decided to put some names on a list and arbitrarily disable the rights of these people to do business with an airline operator. No due process of law, nor even an explanation.

This has become a popular idea, such that many in Congress would like to have a "no firearms" list, on which they can list anyone who's stated beliefs makes them a "threat".

Worse, after the shooting at the Holocaust Museum the other day, CBS commentator Bonnie Erbe said, "It's not enough to prosecute these murders as murders. They are hate-motivated crimes and each of these men [meaning the alleged perpetrators] had been under some sort of police surveillance prior to their actions. Isn't it time we started rounding up promoters of hate before they kill?"

If this becomes popular, the next question is, "How will they know who to round up?"

Reading your email and browsing habits is a good start. Giving a government this kind of power is like giving car keys to a drunken teenager.
 

tblaxland

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Worse, after the shooting at the Holocaust Museum the other day, CBS commentator Bonnie Erbe said, "It's not enough to prosecute these murders as murders. They are hate-motivated crimes and each of these men [meaning the alleged perpetrators] had been under some sort of police surveillance prior to their actions. Isn't it time we started rounding up promoters of hate before they kill?"
Minority Report, anyone?
 

Linguofreak

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Being a criminal's got nothing to do with it, anymore.

Being on the wrong list does.

Take the "no fly" list for instance. The government has decided to put some names on a list and arbitrarily disable the rights of these people to do business with an airline operator. No due process of law, nor even an explanation.

This has become a popular idea, such that many in Congress would like to have a "no firearms" list, on which they can list anyone who's stated beliefs makes them a "threat".

Worse, after the shooting at the Holocaust Museum the other day, CBS commentator Bonnie Erbe said, "It's not enough to prosecute these murders as murders. They are hate-motivated crimes and each of these men [meaning the alleged perpetrators] had been under some sort of police surveillance prior to their actions. Isn't it time we started rounding up promoters of hate before they kill?"

If this becomes popular, the next question is, "How will they know who to round up?"

Reading your email and browsing habits is a good start. Giving a government this kind of power is like giving car keys to a drunken teenager.

Putting people on "lists" is an doublespeaking and unconstitutional means of criminalizing their behavior. And yes, I'm worried about hate-speech laws and such being used to silence positions unpopular with those in power in the name of pre-empting hate crimes. But all of that still has to do with what happens *after* they listen. In other words, I'm more concerned about what they're listening *for* than if they're listening. I just generally tend to assume that any communication, public or private, that passes outside the walls of my house has potentially been eavesdropped upon, just as a private conversation in a public park might be eavesdropped upon. Now, if they're bugging my house or my car, I do have a problem with *that*. That is a clear 4th Ammendment violation. But off my property, I'm more concerned, if they're listening, about whether they'll try to restrict some behavior protected under the First Ammendment, if they find me engaging in it, and whether, when they do find something they don't like, protected by the First Ammendment or not, they'll hold to the Fifth through Eighth Ammendments.
 

Urwumpe

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Who has nothing to hide, has nothing to fear, right? ;)
 

ar81

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Well, if it was designed to snoop criminals, that is fine. Unfortunately, it also might be used by politicians for corporate spying to steal digital data from competitors. A goverment faced against a single company.
 

Andy44

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I just generally tend to assume that any communication, public or private, that passes outside the walls of my house has potentially been eavesdropped upon, just as a private conversation in a public park might be eavesdropped upon.

That's a safe and wise assumption, but it's also a retreat from an earlier, less intrusive time.

I'm old enough to remember when you could be fairly confident that your mail wasn't being read, and your phone calls were not being tapped by the government. In fact, back in the 70s, the NSA was raked over the coals by Congress and the FISA law was passed to prohibit arbitrary wiretapping without a warrant.

Your statement is a reminder that those days have passed, and we are now in era where children will grow up believing they have essentially no right to privacy.

Who has nothing to hide, has nothing to fear, right? ;)

Arghhhh! Makes me pull my hair out!

I know you're joking, but the fact that so many people actually believe this is what makes it so scary.
 

tblaxland

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Your statement is a reminder that those days have passed, and we are now in era where children will grow up believing they have essentially no right to privacy.
Oft-times it seems they have no desire for privacy either. Not sure which is worse. EDIT: If you believe you have no right to privacy, would you desire it anyway?
 

willy88

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I'm willing to give up my freedom, as long as it stops the terrorists. :rolleyes:
 

Linguofreak

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That's a safe and wise assumption, but it's also a retreat from an earlier, less intrusive time.

I'm old enough to remember when you could be fairly confident that your mail wasn't being read, and your phone calls were not being tapped by the government. In fact, back in the 70s, the NSA was raked over the coals by Congress and the FISA law was passed to prohibit arbitrary wiretapping without a warrant.

Your statement is a reminder that those days have passed, and we are now in era where children will grow up believing they have essentially no right to privacy.

I don't see any such right enshrined in the constitution, although the 4th ammendment does cover some, but not all, of what is generally talked about with regards to the 'right to privacy'. Strangely enough, though, my impression is more that the sense of a right to privacy has increased in recent years, not decreased, and that I'm one of the holdouts in my generation that tends to be more dismissive of the 'right to privacy'.

---------- Post added at 10:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:09 PM ----------

Oft-times it seems they have no desire for privacy either. Not sure which is worse. EDIT: If you believe you have no right to privacy, would you desire it anyway?

Yes, but there are places where I expect some degree of privacy, both morally and constitutionally (such as my own home), and places where I don't (such as a mall or public park, a phone line, or the internet).

I suppose you could say that I believe in a right to privacy, but one more limited in what falls under it and where it applies than seems to be popular nowadays.

---------- Post added at 11:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:21 PM ----------

I'm willing to give up my freedom, as long as it stops the terrorists. :rolleyes:

As long as they aren't searching something I actually own without a warrant, I don't see any 4th ammendment violation (my house, car, computer, flash drives, personal notebooks and papers count. A fiber optic line or internet server doesn't, unless I own the controlling telecom or ISP, and disapprove of the search).

And as long as what they prosecute me for is an actual crime, as opposed to a behavior protected under the constitution (like freedom of religion or speech), my constitutionally guaranteed freedoms haven't been "given up."

For example:

If the government catches me having a phone conversation with Osama bin Laden, and arrests me for it, they have violated my right to freedom of peaceable assembly.

If they catch me having a conversation with Osama, and I offer to help sneak a nuke into LA, and they arrest me, they have not violated any of my rights, since I was giving aid and comfort to an enemy of the United States, which is constitutionally defined as treason (Plus, I cannot say that my conversation with bin Laden was 'peaceable' assembly, since I was plotting to blow something up).

If they catch me offering to sneak a nuke into LA by breaking into my house without a warrant and bugging my phone, they have violated my 4th ammendment rights. They do not violate any of my rights by arresting me for making that offer.

If they have somehow figured out what number Osama is using, and they track all calls coming into the US from that number, or going out of the US to that number, and they catch me offering to sneak a nuke into LA, they have every right to arrest me.

Tracking calls going in and out from my number through the telecoms without breaking into my house is a bit of a grey area. If the telecoms agree to allow them to do it, it's probably constitutional.
 

Andy44

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I don't see any such right enshrined in the constitution

Well, aside from the fact that the 9th Ammendment covers all the bases, the fact is that the constitution doesn't determine what your rights are, nor can it, since technically your rights are infinite (but are a subset of infinity, as integers are to all numbers). For instance, the constitution doesn't say you have a right to kiss your wife, but since kissing your wife doesn't violate anyone else's rights, you have a fe facto right to do so (with her permission). The main purpose of the constitution is to tell the government what it may or may not do, not the people.

But I am also of the opinion that the 4th Ammendment does in fact cover the right to privacy. Certainly my "personal papers" include my personal mail, and by extension my email and other electronic documents and communications. The telecom company is a carrier of this traffic and should be reading it or helping spies read it (depending on contractual arrangments, etc.). The spirit of the 4th Amm. is all about privacy, and it was written by people whose mail was regularly read by His Majesty's men during the war.

I always think of Orwell's 1984 when I think of the logical goal of destroying privacy.

---------- Post added at 11:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:07 PM ----------

Tracking calls going in and out from my number through the telecoms without breaking into my house is a bit of a grey area. If the telecoms agree to allow them to do it, it's probably constitutional.

Of course, that's a dirty business, too. All the telecoms except one agreed to help the government spy on their customers after 9/11, and the one that didn't, Qwest, was denied government contracts as punishment for not betraying their customers.

More recently Congress voted to give these companies immunity, so even if they do violate your privacy they are scott free.
 

tblaxland

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As a matter of interest, we have no Bill of Rights (or equivalent) but we do have the Privacy Act of 1988 (most recent amendment 22/5/09). This act outlines the protection for all "personal information" which is defined thus:
"personal information" means information or an opinion (including information or an opinion forming part of a database), whether true or not, and whether recorded in a material form or not, about an individual whose identity is apparent, or can reasonably be ascertained, from the information or opinion.
That Act also establishes the Office of the Privacy Commissioner who hosts Privacy Awareness Week each year, along with this corny ruler:
ruler_thumbnail.jpg
 

movieman

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Well, if it was designed to snoop criminals, that is fine.

Given that getting through a day without breaking a law is almost impossible these days -- and the laws are so complex that you probably can't even tell which ones you've broken without paying a lawyer to follow you around 24/7 -- you might want to reconsider that opinion.
 

Andy44

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Given that getting through a day without breaking a law is almost impossible these days -- and the laws are so complex that you probably can't even tell which ones you've broken without paying a lawyer to follow you around 24/7 -- you might want to reconsider that opinion.

Even worse: politicians have gotten into the habit of passing laws which are intended to be broken, so that they can cash in on the resulting fines.

The town I live in installed automatic red light cameras a few years ago to catch red light runners. The ostensible reason for this was "to improve safety", but the real reason was to collect more fine money. To this end, they shortened the length of the yellow light to encourage more people to run red lights and get tickets. The side effect was more rear-end collisions as people started slamming on their brakes when they saw a yellow light. The town got caught and was forced to fix the lights, but the people responsible all kept their jobs, of course.
 

Quick_Nick

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Even worse: politicians have gotten into the habit of passing laws which are intended to be broken, so that they can cash in on the resulting fines.

The town I live in installed automatic red light cameras a few years ago to catch red light runners. The ostensible reason for this was "to improve safety", but the real reason was to collect more fine money. To this end, they shortened the length of the yellow light to encourage more people to run red lights and get tickets. The side effect was more rear-end collisions as people started slamming on their brakes when they saw a yellow light. The town got caught and was forced to fix the lights, but the people responsible all kept their jobs, of course.
My town recently started using these cameras at a couple of intersections. Indeed, even if there are less crashes within the intersection, it has simply resulted in more rear-end crashes. It's very obvious that they only have the cameras to make money. (and they really do make money. You see the light flashing all the time) And they've just passed a bill to install cameras in ten more intersections and to have the cameras for ten more years. I wish they would get 'caught'.
 

tblaxland

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The town I live in installed automatic red light cameras a few years ago to catch red light runners. The ostensible reason for this was "to improve safety", but the real reason was to collect more fine money. To this end, they shortened the length of the yellow light to encourage more people to run red lights and get tickets. The side effect was more rear-end collisions as people started slamming on their brakes when they saw a yellow light. The town got caught and was forced to fix the lights, but the people responsible all kept their jobs, of course.
I used to work near an intersection where collisions due to red light runners were commonplace (we had the local towing company on speed dial so we could get the "spotters fee" :p). Fortunately there were no fatalities during my shifts but they did happen and the installation of a red light camera at that intersection certainly saved lives - though it did come at a cost of some rear bumpers. This was when red light cameras were fairly new to this state and people were unsure of their operation. For example they were afraid of entering the intersection when the light was yellow for fear that it would turn red whilst they were within the intersection - you can only get fined if you enter the intersection whilst the light was red. Once people overcame their fear of the camera, the overall crash rate and seriousness at the intersection was definitely lower than before (my observation, anyway). I fully support the use of red light cameras based on that experience. Of course, there was no corruption with regard to adjusting light timings.

EDIT: I feel different about speed cameras which are more ostensibly revenue raising devices.
 
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