Updates Orion (MPCV) Updates and Discussion

[Phillips]

Actually, Ares is still in production, too.

NASA are directed to spend $500 million on it under the CR bill that lasts until March.

That's almost two thirds the cost of STS-135 wasted on a rocket that will never even be built, much less reach space.

So, we'll have a rocket and a capsule.

So whats the point? Just ISS flights?

 

[Wonderer]

So, we'll have a rocket and a capsule.

So whats the point? Just ISS flights?

Actually you'll have half a capsule and no rocket :thumbup:

 

[T.Neo]

NASA are directed to spend $500 million on it under the CR bill that lasts until March.

That's almost two thirds the cost of STS-135 wasted on a rocket that will never even be built, much less reach space.

Indeed. As N_Molson said, the wonders of administration. Or in this case, the wonders of mis-administration...

 

[IronRain]

a recent article on Nasaspaceflight.com:

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2010/12/orion-forefront-test-flight-manned-debut-evaluations/

The Orion vehicle’s return to life is starting to pick up the pace, with planning for an unmanned test flight as early as 2013, along with discussions into the schedule for the manned debut of the vehicle. Key questions revolve around joint government and contractor responsibility for the test flight, while the manned debut may occur in 2016, or 2018/19, depending on the availability of the Space Launch System (SLS).

According to the site, a DeltaV Heavy would be the launcher:

 

[Phillips]

a recent article on Nasaspaceflight.com:

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2010/12/orion-forefront-test-flight-manned-debut-evaluations/



According to the site, a DeltaV Heavy would be the launcher:

See, I guess NASA learned DIRECT... kinda...

I mean, DIRECT used the space shuttle and modified components, using technology that we already HAVE.

Now we're using a Delta V Heavy, a rocket already used. Just I think Launch Pad 39A will need to be modified, as all Delta V launches are from the airforce base.

But yay, constellation lives! Kinda... But then again, I thought Ares I and V were ridiculous, the apollo missions had the lunar lander with the apollo capsule, they just needed to dock in space. And the next ares i test flight would be in 2015, so 2013 is a good enough goal. Another thing is how long the Ares V needed to be developed, if it was ready in 2017, the first proposed ares I landing would be in 2019.

This is the happiest moment in the history of space.

 

[GoForPDI]

NASA isn't planning to use the Delta V heavy for any manned launches. Several companies are evaluating different concpets for LV's at the moment, these include everything from Shuttle Derived DIRECT-esque LV's, to all-liquid HLV's, to man-rating existing EELV's, a descision on a launch vehicle will not be made untill late 2011/2012 at the earliest. LC39 will be undergoing some work very soon, including the current demolition of the Shuttle tower at Pad 39b, the crew access arm and white room was removed before the Ares 1-x launch in 2009, and the controlled demolition of the entire tower will take place soon. For the first time since Apollo, we will see a clean pad at LC39, as NASA will return to the Apollo style tower attached to the MLP. The Ares 1 ML, which has no use, is sitting next to the VAB, its an impressive thing, almost as tall as the Saturn V tower and sits on an MLP, but it most likely will never be used

The idea is to make LC39 a complex which can handle several types of rocket, there is a chance that we could be seeing a new ''arsenal'' of manned space systems with one government system in place, and several LEO commercial operators, ''new space'', to complement ''old space''.

The US space programme is about to completely change in the next decade, just as the Space Shuttle made manned flight more diverse and useful, the future plans of NASA, including the redevelopment of KSC and Commercial Crew, will give alot of choice and options as to how you get to LEO, aswell as the capability of getting to destinations beyond LEO.

Remember, ''space programmes'' are a thing of the past, the next few decades is all about accelerating private manned spacecraft production (basically so the government themselves dont need to spend all that cash to get to LEO) and developing BEO capabilities (Orion and the new HLV) one step at a time. Its more of an American ''space industry''.

 

[Phillips]

NASA isn't planning to use the Delta V heavy for any manned launches. Several companies are evaluating different concpets for LV's at the moment, these include everything from Shuttle Derived DIRECT-esque LV's, to all-liquid HLV's, to man-rating existing EELV's, a descision on a launch vehicle will not be made untill late 2011/2012 at the earliest. LC39 will be undergoing some work very soon, including the current demolition of the Shuttle tower at Pad 39b, the crew access arm and white room was removed before the Ares 1-x launch in 2009, and the controlled demolition of the entire tower will take place soon. For the first time since Apollo, we will see a clean pad at LC39, as NASA will return to the Apollo style tower attached to the MLP. The Ares 1 ML, which has no use, is sitting next to the VAB, its an impressive thing, almost as tall as the Saturn V tower and sits on an MLP, but it most likely will never be used

The idea is to make LC39 a complex which can handle several types of rocket, there is a chance that we could be seeing a new ''arsenal'' of manned space systems with one government system in place, and several LEO commercial operators, ''new space'', to complement ''old space''.

The US space programme is about to completely change in the next decade, just as the Space Shuttle made manned flight more diverse and useful, the future plans of NASA, including the redevelopment of KSC and Commercial Crew, will give alot of choice and options as to how you get to LEO, aswell as the capability of getting to destinations beyond LEO.

Remember, ''space programmes'' are a thing of the past, the next few decades is all about accelerating private manned spacecraft production (basically so the government themselves dont need to spend all that cash to get to LEO) and developing BEO capabilities (Orion and the new HLV) one step at a time. Its more of an American ''space industry''.

The return of the Shuttle Derived Launch Vehicle?
My oh my.
But still, if I recal, the Delta IV Heavy has had no failures, so why not use it?

 

[T.Neo]

That is a good track record, but things are not only about failure rate. Engineering and (of course) politics come into it as well.

 

[GoForPDI]

Basically, Congress wants to keep some Shuttle hardware in order to save jobs for the workers currently working in the SSP. It also saves major infrastructure work, for example the 10m tanking of the Ares V would require a brand-new ET barge and brand new facilities at Michoud, an 8.4m core (like the STS ET) would mean that the guys at Michoud would keep producing the ET's, and the same infrastructure already in place at Michoud would be used.

But right now, nobody even knows if NASA is going to have the funding for the LV.. Anyway, surely there is a separate thread for this?

 

[Urwumpe]

But still, if I recal, the Delta IV Heavy has had no failures, so why not use it?

The Delta IV is just economically a failure. Without the overpriced EELV contract, Boeing wouldn't sell it. The Atlas V has more success outside the EELV world, for being better suited for the market. If NASA would need a 30 ton lifter, Boeing would still be in a pretty bad situation, because the Atlas V can be sold cheaper.

The problem is: You can't control private companies. If you want to make sure that the taxes are spend in your state as congressman, you want NASA to do it all itself. It is a sad logic that fuels corruption, but it works out like that.

 

[jaydog]

Doesnt Obama make a decision on the space programs launch vehicle and the space programs direction in another month or two?

It seems if space x keeps having success with the falcon and dragon whats the point in even doing orion? Its all sub-contracted out, so orion is redundant, and obviously space x is further ahead with their stuff.
Nasa should just keep the tank and srb's and attach a simple payload carrier with engine pack at end and we would get 45 tons to orbit when we need the big stuff, including a lander if its needed.
:facepalm:

 

[Phillips]

Doesnt Obama make a decision on the space programs launch vehicle and the space programs direction in another month or two?

It seems if space x keeps having success with the falcon and dragon whats the point in even doing orion? Its all sub-contracted out, so orion is redundant, and obviously space x is further ahead with their stuff.
Nasa should just keep the tank and srb's and attach a simple payload carrier with engine pack at end and we would get 45 tons to orbit when we need the big stuff, including a lander if its needed.
:facepalm:

The wonders of no shuttle derived vehicles.
But constellation is cancelled, no Orion, Altair, Ares I and V.
U.S spaceflight is headed nowhere now.

 

[GoForPDI]

People need to stop comparing Dragon with Orion. Orion has undergone serious design changes under Constelation, its been under funded, and it is a spacecraft designed for BEO despite not being part of a clear BEO plan.

Dragon does LEO. Orion does BEO. Thats the whole point!

 

[Phillips]

People need to stop comparing Dragon with Orion. Orion has undergone serious design changes under Constelation, its been under funded, and it is a spacecraft designed for BEO despite not being part of a clear BEO plan.

Dragon does LEO. Orion does BEO. Thats the whole point!

Dragon does private spaceflight for paying customers, Orion ferry's astronauts to the ISS and the moon.

 

[C3PO]

Dragon does LEO. Orion does BEO. Thats the whole point!

Mr. Musk stated in the post-mission press conference of flight-2 that Dragon's heat shield was designed for direct entry from Mars.

 

[Urwumpe]

Dragon does private spaceflight for paying customers, Orion ferry's astronauts to the ISS and the moon.

Sorry, but I have to say, you are on the wrong track there.

NASA has to justify the funding for Orion. If Dragon and Cygnus can dock to the ISS, and bring astronauts and cargo there, and likely also do that much cheaper than the over-designed Orion craft (just look for the minimum launch vehicle needed for a LEO Orion craft), it is just absurd to think Orion will be used at all costs.

NASA has the weakness of NIH, but still, NASA is commanded around by people who are very afraid of angry tax payers. As long as Dragon is just a paper tiger (even today), it won't change NASA completely. But if it is available, there will also be a market for it. And if there is a market, NASA has to retreat.

You could just as well try to make NASA launch NASA communication satellites with NASA launch vehicles. Why don't the USA do that? Because the market works better. NASA doesn't build better satellites today, than what Boeing can do. And it will be the same with capsules eventually. If NASA doesn't provide an Orion, that does things that no private satellite producer can offer, it is an artifact of the past, that was just kept alive without a reason.

BEO, Orion will really have a chance. Even if it is just for setting the standards for privately produced BEO spacecraft, because those will come eventually by the same companies who now smell the blood in the water.

NASA is weak today. And this weakness will be exploited by many small and large predators.

 

[GoForPDI]

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2011/01/joint-team-recommended-orion-test-flight-otf-1-2013/

Work on the MPCV is ticking away! Really nice to see. The flight in 2013 will be amazing to watch.

 

[Urwumpe]

Who wants to take a bet, that the first flight of the MPCV will not be before 2016?

 

[GoForPDI]

Well, i'm not sure why the first flight would be that far away, LM have already built an entire ground test article with a pressure vessel, heat shield, parachutes, everything (with the Service Module being built right now). Building an unmanned test version shouldn't take them six years (provided they have the funding of course)

 

[DaveS]

Who wants to take a bet, that the first flight of the MPCV will not be before 2016?

Does the test flight on a Delta IV Heavy in 2013 not count?