Updates Orion (MPCV) Updates and Discussion

Urwumpe

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I won't fight on that again, but there will be no progress saying again and again "Space Shuttle was an incredible spacecraft, it flew 135 times, was re-usable, had a robotic arm & a payload bay, etc...". All of that is true, but now it is time to move on and see farther. Let the "commercial spacecrafts" take care of LEO & ISS resupplying, it's what the CCT program was designed for.

How would you feel if somebody would tell you that it is time to move on, cars had been nice, but oil gets rare and cars pollute, you should use bikes or horses. Would you have the feeling that you move on to a better future? Or would you think that you are getting sold a cheap solution, that will become more expensive in the end?

---------- Post added at 10:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:11 PM ----------

Because this is the XR2 or DG-IV and there won't be such kind of technology before a good 200 years.

If nobody develops it, it could even take forever. And you can't just go and proclaim, you will develop the DG out of the thin air. You need to go step by step - and that consequently in the right direction, not back in a hysterical classicism.
 

Codz

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How would you feel if somebody would tell you that it is time to move on, cars had been nice, but oil gets rare and cars pollute, you should use bikes or horses. Would you have the feeling that you move on to a better future? Or would you think that you are getting sold a cheap solution, that will become more expensive in the end?

---------- Post added at 10:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:11 PM ----------



If nobody develops it, it could even take forever. And you can't just go and proclaim, you will develop the DG out of the thin air. You need to go step by step - and that consequently in the right direction, not back in a hysterical classicism.

Well if you'd like to invent the DG you are more than welcome to.
 

N_Molson

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I really don't agree on that, I don't see why the Orion program is such a "return in the past". It will use a fully cryogenic launcher, the latest electronics in the onboard computers and navigation systems, comms, life support systems, crew comfort, EVA suits, thermal protection, advanced composite materials.

Most of those components have been developped & validated over the Shuttle program, so I won't see why it is so bad.

I'd like to see what you propose as a BEO spacecraft, an orbiter addon using current or near-future tech would be interesting to experiment the superiority of your design. ;)
 
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Urwumpe

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I really don't agree on that, I don't see why the Orion program is such a "return in the past". It will use a fully cryogenic launcher, the latest electronics in the onboard computers and navigation systems, comms, life support systems, crew comfort, EVA suits, thermal protection, advanced composite materials.

So does Soyuz. And even the Russians see Soyuz as a necessary stagnation, because a modern Soyuz that flies is better than a Klipr, that might not fly if money gets short.

And don't ask me to make an add-on, I am happy if I have the time currently to just be at the forum. I currently move in a new apartment and have a lot of work ahead of me until I can resume any development.
 

T.Neo

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Because this is the XR2 or DG-IV and there won't be such kind of technology before a good 200 years.

I said nothing about fictional Orbiter spaceplanes, I was talking about an improved development on the Shuttle.

If we keep thinking that such a thing is akin to a ficticious DG-IV, it will never be built.
 

Urwumpe

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If we keep thinking that such a thing is akin to a ficticious DG-IV, it will never be built.

Compared to the real world of space planes, the DG is boring anyway. :lol:
 

Codz

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I said nothing about fictional Orbiter spaceplanes, I was talking about an improved development on the Shuttle.

If we keep thinking that such a thing is akin to a ficticious DG-IV, it will never be built.

Alright fine create a BEO space shuttle.(Good luck with building that runway on Mars or the Moon by the way.)
 

MaverickSawyer

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I said nothing about fictional Orbiter spaceplanes, I was talking about an improved development on the Shuttle.

If we keep thinking that such a thing is akin to a ficticious DG-IV, it will never be built.

The G42-200 seems like a reasonable level of tech to aim for, though, right? :)
 

T.Neo

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Alright fine create a BEO space shuttle.(Good luck with building that runway on Mars or the Moon by the way.)

That would be an inexorably silly concept, and you would never land on Mars or the Moon with a runway (real serface baces do not work that way :p ).

It was originally proposed to use the shuttle (or a shuttle, much of this was still when there were many concepts floating around) to perform launch and on-orbit assembly of BEO exploration vehicles. I suggest you take some time out to research this, as it is very interestung stuff.

Basically: you could build a BEO shuttle, but it would work by never leaving LEO. :lol:
 
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Donamy

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How about this ?
 

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N_Molson

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If it can hold enough conventionnal propellant for TLI, LOI, Lunar Landing, Lunar Liftoff & TEI, why not ? :yes:
 

Codz

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That would be an inexorably silly concept, and you would never land on Mars or the Moon with a runway (real serface baces do not work that way :p ).

It was originally proposed to use the shuttle (or a shuttle, much of this was still when there were many concepts floating around) to perform launch and on-orbit assembly of BEO exploration vehicles. I suggest you take some time out to research this, as it is very interestung stuff.

Basically: you could build a BEO shuttle, but it would work by never leaving LEO. :lol:

Exactly. I thought you were actually suggesting we go to Mars with a Space Shuttle.:rofl:
 

IronRain

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Space Launch System / Orion Test Flight Concepts

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4e-bqzaZh-o&feature=feedu"]Space Launch System / Orion Test Flight Concepts - YouTube[/ame]
 

Tychonaut

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Space Launch System / Orion Test Flight Concepts

Space Launch System / Orion Test Flight Concepts - YouTube
I noticed the MPCV capsule in this video was painted white, but in the recent video of the Delta IV Heavy test one could clearly see the black carbon fibre structure. Are they planning to not paint the orbital test article, but paint the later ones, or is the difference in color scheme just as meaningless as the video SLS still being painted like a Saturn V?
 

N_Molson

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I really wouldn't trust the colors schemes you can see on animations. Animations are made for promotion and advertisement, they just have to look pretty.

---------- Post added at 11:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:00 AM ----------

Lockheed Martin to select Delta 4 rocket for Orion test

BY STEPHEN CLARK
SPACEFLIGHT NOW
Posted: November 9, 2011


NASA announced this week it has signed on to a long-sought proposal by Lockheed Martin Corp. for a $370 million unmanned orbital test flight of the Orion capsule in early 2014, clearing the way for final contract negotiations for launch on a Delta 4-Heavy rocket.

01.jpg

Artist's concept of the Orion spacecraft launching on a Delta 4 rocket. Credit: NASA

The United Launch Alliance Delta 4-Heavy is the largest U.S. rocket currently in existence, and it's needed to boost the Orion spaceship into an oval-shaped orbit stretching nearly 5,000 miles above Earth.

From there, the Orion will dive back into Earth's atmosphere at more than 20,000 mph, giving engineers key data on how the spacecraft responds to a re-entry at speeds nearly replicating what the capsule will see when returning from deep space missions to asteroids and other destinations.

"The entry part of the test will produce data needed to develop a spacecraft capable of surviving speeds greater than 20,000 mph and safely return astronauts from beyond Earth orbit," said Bill Gerstenmaier, NASA's associate administrator for human exploration and operations. "This test is very important to the detailed design process in terms of the data we expect to receive."

The Orion spacecraft would deploy parachutes and splash down in the Pacific Ocean off the coast of Baja California.

Lockheed Martin, the Orion spacecraft's prime contractor, has pushed for such a test flight for more than a year. But uncertainty about NASA's budget delayed the agency's commitment to the flight until this month, pushing the uncrewed mission's launch date from mid-2013 to early 2014.

Mark Geyer, NASA's Orion program manager, said a firm contract for a launch vehicle is the "long pole" in the schedule driving the launch date.

Lockheed Martin is responsible for procuring a rocket, but managers expect to issue a sole-source award to United Launch Alliance for a Delta 4-Heavy rocket. It's the only U.S. launch vehicle capable of sending Orion to a high enough orbit to generate the re-entry velocity necessary for the test.

"In the United States, there are only two existing launch vehicles that could fly us, and only one could really do the mission objectives. Because of that, we don't have to put out a [request for proposals]. We can just go out and buy a Delta 4-Heavy," said John Karas, vice president and general manager for human spaceflight at Lockheed Martin.

"Atlas 5, in its current form, just isn't big enough to lift all of Orion and do all the missions we want," Karas said. "On a Delta 4, we can lift all the crew module, and some of the service module, and send it 5,000 miles in a highly elliptical orbit and screaming back in like a deep space mission return." NASA officials say a Delta 4-Heavy rocket costs about $300 million.

d4h.jpg

File photo of a Delta 4-Heavy rocket. Credit: Pat Corkery/United Launch Alliance

"A Delta price isn't that big for all the science we'll get and the technology input we'll get," Karas said. "If we flew a smaller rocket, we wouldn't be able to get all the velocity we want. We're actually going to test our skip re-entry that we'll do coming back from the moon for a lot more crossrange. We wouldn't do the skip re-entry mission, but we'd come in at angles and actually test lift over drag. If we didn't have a bigger rocket, we couldn't test that."

Orion will circle Earth twice during the test flight, which is expected to last about six hours.

The capsule will use the Delta 4's upper stage to fine tune its re-entry angle before separating for the fiery plunge back into the atmosphere.

Geyer said the test flight will retire significant risk from the spacecraft well before it's ever used to transport human crews to and from deep space.

"If I have any problems, either in the design or getting ready, I'll still have time to fix them," Geyer said. "If you find your problems late, then everyone else is waiting for you, and it gets pretty expensive."

The Orion will be filled with instrumentation to measure how the spacecraft reacts to the flight, especially its heat shield and recovery parachutes, according to Geyer. The test will address the most significant risks to crew survivability on an exploration mission, NASA said.

It will lift off with a launch abort system tower and its backshell heat-resistant tiles will be black because that color's heat properties are better known, according to Bill Johns, Lockheed Martin's chief engineer for the Orion program.

Future long-duration flights will use an all-white Orion spacecraft.

"It will be a lot of fun," Geyer said. "Nothing like a flight test to get people motivated, so it helps a lot. It drives a lot of design decisions. When you have a test coming up quick, you have to make decisions."

Initially started under the now-canceled Constellation moon program, the Orion vehicle has been in development since 2006. The Obama administration and Congress decided to recycle the Orion in a new exploration program aimed at human expeditions to asteroids and eventually Mars.

orbit.jpg

A view of Orion's elliptical orbit during the EFT-1 mission in early 2014. Credit: NASA

The Orion spaceship is also called the Multi-Purpose Crew Vehicle by NASA. The 2014 mission is known as Exploration Flight Test-1, or EFT-1.

A ground test article of the Orion spacecraft is complete and undergoing testing at Lockheed Martin's facility in Denver. The second full-up Orion is under construction in New Orleans and will ship to the Kennedy Space Center as soon as March for final assembly, testing and launch preparations.

The Florida spaceport's Operations and Checkout Building will the home of Orion assembly. KSC's canister rotation facility will be used to prepare the Orion launch abort system.

Astronauts are not slated to fly aboard an Orion craft until 2021, when the space agency tentatively plans to send a crew on a flight to loop around the moon.

NASA hopes to get funding to advance the flight as early as 2019, but that's far from assured given ongoing budget battles in the federal government.

Two Orion capsules would fly unmanned before NASA commits astronauts to a mission. After the 2014 test flight on the Delta 4-Heavy rocket, another Orion would blast off on NASA's heavy-lift Space Launch System at the end of 2017.

In between those missions, an Orion will be bolted atop the first stage of a decommissioned Peacekeeper missile to simulate an abort during the most strenuous part of a launch, when the rocket passes through the speed of sound and reaches a point called Max-Q, or maximum aerodynamic pressure.

orion_gta_black.jpg

The Orion ground test article looks much like the spacecraft will look when it flies on an orbital test flight in 2014. Credit: Lockheed Martin

Called an ascent abort, the test would demonstrate Orion's ability to safely whisk a crew away from a failing rocket.

NASA successfully completed a pad abort test in 2010, showing Orion can fire solid-fueled rockets to boost the capsule away from a launch vehicle still on the ground. There will not be another pad abort test for Orion, according to Geyer.

The two stressing cases were the pad abort because you've got to get up and away fast, and then transsonic because of controllability issues," Geyer said.

Gerstenmaier and NASA Administrator Charlie Bolden, acting on Geyer's recommendation, selected the EFT-1 orbital test mission to go first in Orion's flight sequence.

Officials expect to save money by reusing the Orion spacecraft from the EFT-1 mission for the ascent abort demo, which is due to occur at Cape Canaveral in 2015 or 2016 in the current schedule.

Although NASA has invested five years and more than $5 billion into the Orion program to date, its primary launch vehicle is still on the drawing board.

NASA envisions the Space Launch System as the workhorse rocket for human exploration. At first, it will be capable of hauling 70 metric tons of cargo into low Earth orbit, but upgrades will later raise its capacity to 130 metric tons.

The agency unveiled the design of the SLS in September, announcing it will initially consist of a hydrogen-fueled core powered by three space shuttle main engines, two strap-on five-segment solid rocket boosters, and a cryogenic upper stage with a J-2X engine. The design capitalizes on technology from the shuttle, Constellation and Apollo programs, but full-scale development is just now getting started.
 

T.Neo

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I noticed the MPCV capsule in this video was painted white, but in the recent video of the Delta IV Heavy test one could clearly see the black carbon fibre structure.

Apparently they want to switch from the black colouration for LEO flights to a white one for BEO flights.

the video SLS still being painted like a Saturn V?

That totally ruined the video for me. :dry:

Also, why an "Interim cryogenic propulsion stage"? So that NASA can pay an aerospace contractor to develop another upper stage that it'll end up not needing at all, before the 'proper' upper stage that keeps on getting spoken about? Why?

Or is it just a politically-correct stand-in for a supposed Delta IV or Atlas V upper stage proposed for the SLS/Orion Apollo 8 reconstruction?

"Atlas 5, in its current form, just isn't big enough to lift all of Orion and do all the missions we want," Karas said.

Why? It isn't like Atlas V heavy is a whole new development project. There will be unflown hardware that has to be added and if you wanted to have the DEC work would have to be done for the two-engine configuration, but the vehicle was always designed for the heavy configuration in mind.

Doesn't Atlas V have the heavier payload, anyway? Or does this diminish for higher orbits due to the lower ISP of the RL-10A-4, despite the lower dry mass of the centaur stage?

And why not wait a few years and launch a complete Orion with a proper service module on an EELV, and perform the burn to place the vehicle into the elliptical test orbit with the OME? It should have sizable dV by itself, even if partially loaded.
 
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N_Molson

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And why not wait a few years and launch a complete Orion

I think they have waited long enough. This is a first test flight ; the goal is mainly to test the capsule systems and the reentry shield (hence the elliptical orbit). There will be other test flights, more focused on the S&P module.

Why the Delta IV upper stage ? It exists, it works, it is reliable, and it can meet the requirements of the missions on the schedule. Period. :facts:

Of course there are political and buisness interests behind this but again we should not dive into dire paranoïa & doubtful conspiracy theories. :rolleyes:
 

T.Neo

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I think they have waited long enough.

Waiting has nothing to do with it. This thing is only supposedly going to fly in five years at the very least, and won't do more for many years after that.

There is no super-tight schedule they have to meet with this flight.

This is a first test flight ; the goal is mainly to test the capsule systems and the reentry shield (hence the elliptical orbit). There will be other test flights, more focused on the S&P module.

There was no Apollo test that flew only the capsule and a castrated service module bolted to the upper stage. ;)

A later test could, assuming several technical issues, perhaps fulfill the goals of EFT-1 and other goals as well, for the cost of only a single launch, and only a single batch of hardware.

At current launch rates, a DIVH launch costs at least $260 million, and I have even heard figures going over $400 million.

But of course, you wouldn't have a shiny test flight that can say "Hey everyone, we are actually doing something".

Why the Delta IV upper stage ? It exists, it works, it is reliable, and it can meet the requirements of the missions on the schedule. Period.

I am sorry, Delta IV upper stage? For what? An upper stage for SLS or an upper stage for Delta IV?

I am confused: is the interim cryogenic stage a DIVCUS-derivative, or an all-new development effort?

Have we ever actually seen that the DIVCUS can meet the mission requirements on schedule? Is there any documentation relating to man-rating it? More info than just "we can make a graphic of our launch vehicle and stick a DIVCUS on top"?

(Also, I know this is a very minor issue, but Centaur in general has far more flight experience than the Delta stage, though I'm not sure about historical failure rate.)

Of course there are political and buisness interests behind this but again we should not dive into dire paranoïa & doubtful conspiracy theories.

How can you admit that something occurs, yet call it "dire paranoia" and "doubtful conspiracy theories" in the same sentence? :uhh:
 
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N_Molson

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Yeah, yeah, you're right, as always :yes:

Rethorics.

Edit : what I mean there is that you tend twist people words to your advantage. The fact you're a native speaker/writer and me not even add to this, as my sentences doesn't always express my thoughts the way I would. The second point - and this has been said to you already - is that you seem to see things in binary fashion, true or false. They are shades of grey between white and black, and it is how the world affairs are constantly running.

To illustrate my point :

Of course there are political and buisness interests behind this but again we should not dive into dire paranoïa & doubtful conspiracy theories.

How can you admit that something occurs, yet call it "dire paranoia" and "doubtful conspiracy theories" in the same sentence?

What I mean is that people have done and will always do things to serve their interest and to seek for prestige or power. This is even more true with spaceflight, because rockets and aerospace systems are bind to weaponery technology (missles, etc...). So we have not to be surprised here.

Why Gagarin was sent into space ? Khrutschev didn't gave its authorization because he was curious about science, but because he wanted to say to the USA : "Look, I can put a 4-tons spacecraft into orbit and bring it back to Earth safely, so I can easily do the same with a nuclear bomb. You are defenseless against that, I own the world so show me respect !".

So are you hoping that some kind of "saint" suddenly rises and leads the US space program ? Everything has to do with interests and struggle for power. Humans are like that.
 
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