Orbiter Shuttle Sim

[BHawthorne]

Congrats!

 

[yagni01]

Congrats!

Absolutely!

 

[Quick_Nick]

Yay!

 

[landon2006]

I just looked into that Sol7 software. This stuff is totally cool! The images this thing produces is exactly what we are looking for the in shuttle Sims.

Do you know the price tag on the Sol7 software? or how hard it is to set-up? Also, does it perform well with Orbiter (if anyone has tried it).

I found some Youtube Videos that really show what this software can do:

Check those out and tell me this is not the coolest thing yet!

I think we figured out how the display will work. I'm gonna have to look into setting up the 3D Theater at the Museum in this manner as well. That would be neat... a wrap-around, 3D (via Polarized projectors and glasses) image! :speakcool:

By the way, how many projectors would be needed to get a suitable, 180 degree curve out of this? That way we can have the windows wrap around to the side of the shuttle as well, just like in real.

 

[BHawthorne]

Sol7. Commercial liscense around $4k, non-commercial simpit liscense $430. Get the non-commercial simpit liscense. 2 or 3 projectors depending upon if you use the columnated lense trick or just shoot directly to screen. The non-commercial pricing I got them to cut a deal with simpit builders so it would give them a new market and the simpit builders a real pano projection option. Use this with a Matrox triplehead2go splitter box.

Orbiter -> Sol7 -> nVidia Geforce card -> Matrox TH2G box -> 3 projectors -> screen

Keep in mind, Orbiter must work in DX9 or OpenGL before this will work right. DX7 won't cut it in this config. Fronkly, I'd like to see someone integrate these camera controls internally into a DX9 OVP build negating the need for external utilities.

 

[landon2006]

Keep in mind, Orbiter must work in DX9 or OpenGL before this will work right. DX7 won't cut it in this config.

Does Orbiter currently not live up to this requirement?

The columnated lense would be nice, but I'm not sure how much extra cost and expertise is required in setting this type of thing up... I tried to look up information about this technology, but found very little to go on.

 

[BHawthorne]

Does Orbiter currently not live up to this requirement?

The columnated lense would be nice, but I'm not sure how much extra cost and expertise is required in setting this type of thing up... I tried to look up information about this technology, but found very little to go on.

Not outside of beta form. I am looking forward to a DX9/OpenGL frozen development release in non-beta form. DX7 has rendering pixel width issues with these wide panoramic setups. DX7 can't do more than 2048 width...while DX9-10 can do as much as your video card's pixel renderer can. 8-series and newer nVidia can do 8196x8196 theoretical. That means with a Matrox TH2G Digital and something like a new Geforce GTX260 video card with a TH2G you can push up to 3x1680x1050 @ 57Hz if you have 3 projectors that can lock to that Hz and resolution. My personal setup is using 2x1280x720 using XP horizontal-span mode instead of a TH2G box.

I'm shooting for a dual-projector Sol7 setup on my simpit, hence why I went through all the negotiation with ImmersaView for a non-commercial simpit build last December. It's still in beta state but stable and usable. They're still adding features to it with simpits in mind. ImmersiView typically conentrates on commercial video wall development so I came out of left field on them when I suggested a new market. They were receptive about it and have a sub-forum on www.mycockpit.org.

No matter what we do, it's make it up as we go along. This stuff is all highly specialized. If noone does it first it won't get done. The real game in all of this is pioneering the way affordably. You can always find contractors to do project at some ungodly cost. That makes it inaccessable to the hobbiest though.

 

[landon2006]

Sounds like it could work. hopefully, Orbiter will be able to work with it by the time we open...

Also, I was looking over at mycockpit.org but was unable to find the sub-forum for Sol7... I tried searching for it, but it keeps telling me my "Non Spam Confirmation Numbers" are wrong...

You can always find contractors to do project at some ungodly cost. That makes it inaccessable to the hobbiest though.

Yeah... I don't want a bunch of contractors involved. I plan to do all this pretty much internally.

Do you have a direct link by any chance?
Thanks!

 

[BHawthorne]

BTW, that second video is much like my setup. It looks to be 2 projectors. You can curve the screen a lot more than that to get more surround. The projection will have areas of softer focus in parts of the screen though because some of the screen will be closer to the projection focal point than others. Focal points and highly cicular screens are a bit tricky to get focused right initially. It's very immersive though.

Also check out the blending options between multi-projector for Sol7. That is the coolest part of Sol7 imho.

 

[yagni01]

Sol7. Commercial liscense around $4k, non-commercial simpit liscense $430. Get the non-commercial simpit liscense.

Brad, are you sure this application would fall under the 'non-commercial' part of the license? Don't know what you negotiated, but usually thats limited to academic and private use. Not-for-profits are still commercial entities, so this might be a gray area. . .

 

[BHawthorne]

Brad, are you sure this application would fall under the 'non-commercial' part of the license? Don't know what you negotiated, but usually thats limited to academic and private use. Not-for-profits are still commercial entities, so this might be a gray area. . .

Hrrrm, good question. I'd hate to see this project get stuck with the $4k version though because that would blow the budget on the build. Condering the $400 and the $4k version do the same thing it would be a shame.

 

[landon2006]

Really, it all depends. We don't really have a budget right now that's set in stone. While I don't really want to pay that kind of money for the software, we may have it to spare.

There are also other programs that do the same thing as well. There is the product from

, that looks about the same, as well as OpenWARP as well. I don't know much about them, or their cost.....

Really, that $4,000 per shuttle budget was just a throwout number... The cheaper the better though.

I really don't think this falls under Non-Commercial, and I don't think a summer program would qualify as a academic use?

Again though, considering how much we already have in this project, $4,000 more is not a really huge obsticle, just one I would rather not cross if not needed. We already have well over $20k put out just 2 simulators (MAT and G FORCE). our Underwater Tank and Setup will run around $8k all by itself. Then If we get the Land, we will have to build and outfit buildings...

Not Cheap.

 

[BHawthorne]

The Mersive Technologies and OpenWARP are gonna be significantly more expensive than even the commercial Sol7 cost. Looks like those 2 use proprietary hardware in thier builds. I went though months of research last year and came to the conclusion unless someone comes out with an open source knockoff pre-warp utility the simpit version of Sol7 is unbeatable.

There is a market for affordable circular and dome pre-warp projection utilities but noone has made a successful open source project for one yet. I'd be willing to put up a sourceforge bounty of $500 if someone made one that also encorporated SoftTH functionality.

Software pre-warp + multi-head = ideal simpit utility.

 

[landon2006]

Overall, I need to put together some kind of an estimated budget pretty quick. This way we can start to gather funds for the project... I talked to the Board of Directors today, and we have come up with some Fun-Raising ideas that might bring in $50,000 +... But really I need to know how much we need before I can commit on any one fundraiser.

It might be best to do One shuttle, and spend the extra money to outfit it properly, then ad another shuttle next year.... That way, we are not cutting corners on both just to get 2... I'll have to make up several budgets, from low to high.

Biggest problem is getting the budget approved. The board consists of 12 individuals, and so far agreeing on any one thing has been kind of difficult. Getting approval of the budget might take a week or more, but we might eventually come up with an idea of what were looking for once I run the numbers and see what kind of income we might make off the fund raising and sponsorships. There may also be some Museum money left over, which I'll have to look into as well.

Edit: We'll also have to keep some money back for advertisement... While we will have space for well over 200 campers, even the first year, rather we get that large of an enrollment or not will depend on several factors.

 

[BHawthorne]

2-3 computers dedicated to the shuttle itself ($500ea)
1 for the ISS module ($500ea)
1 per mission control station. ($500ea)
1 for mission control projector. ($500)

2 projectors for the ouside panorama visual ($500-700ea)
1 projector for mission control? ($500-700)
1 Sol7 ($400/$4k)
# Extra spare bulbs for projectors ($200-300ea last 2000 hours)

# switches/switch guards? ($2-3ea)
2 control sticks
# Glass cockpit LCDs? ($100-150ea)
# office chairs for mission control?
# mission control and shuttle shell materials costs? ($1000-1500?)

 

[landon2006]

I'm going to talk to the board members tomorrow and forming an official advisory committee.

If available, I would like for Brad, yagni01, Quick_Nick and anyone else who has an interest in the shuttle or other simulation builds to become members... It would pretty much be what is going on here, only more official.

I'll talk to them tomorrow, and see if I can't get the committee formed pretty fast.

Let me know if your available to join,
Landon

 

[BHawthorne]

My suggested build for the main computers would be:

Intel Q6600 Quad Core - $190
nForce 680i SLI mobo - $180
GeForce 9800 - $125
4GB (2x2GB) DDR2 - $37
320GB WD SATA HD - $55
Antec 650W PSU - $60
Case - $60-150

You could go newer components but these are tried and true and will do the job. They also have room for future upgrades as needed.

For just glass cockpit slave computers and mission control I'd go dirt cheap on a few of those though with AMD X2 systems. You can half the component cost on those computer builds by going AMD.


-----Post Added-----

I'm going to talk to the board members tomorrow and forming an official advisory committee.

If available, I would like for Brad, yagni01, Quick_Nick and anyone else who has an interest in the shuttle or other simulation builds to become members... It would pretty much be what is going on here, only more official.

I'll talk to them tomorrow, and see if I can't get the committee formed pretty fast.

Let me know if your available to join,
Landon

Sounds good to me. I'd be willing to be a committee member.

 

[landon2006]

Cool... Anyone else who wants to join, let me know by posting your interest on this topic..


-----Post Added-----


I was doing a little more exploring in Orbiter... I have a new question. Is it possible to completely disable the on screen MFD's by some means other than the "Power" feature, and still have them usable? For instance, how can we make then disappear from the main screen, which will be what is projected, and instead show them on the MFD screens built into the cockpit?

Also, is it possible to get rid of the HUD and other text, etc on the main screen? obviously, this would not look very realistic if it was projected onto the "sky" outside...

Thanks,

 

[BHawthorne]

I was doing a little more exploring in Orbiter... I have a new question. Is it possible to completely disable the on screen MFD's by some means other than the "Power" feature, and still have them usable? For instance, how can we make then disappear from the main screen, which will be what is projected, and instead show them on the MFD screens built into the cockpit?

Also, is it possible to get rid of the HUD and other text, etc on the main screen? obviously, this would not look very realistic if it was projected onto the "sky" outside...

Thanks,

control-h hides the hud. I've not used the shuttles much, but I'm sure is some way to turn off the 2D MFD panels. Most of my experience is with the Delta Gliders.

 

[Hielor]

I was doing a little more exploring in Orbiter... I have a new question. Is it possible to completely disable the on screen MFD's by some means other than the "Power" feature, and still have them usable? For instance, how can we make then disappear from the main screen, which will be what is projected, and instead show them on the MFD screens built into the cockpit?

I don't know if it's possible to remove them on the fly, but if you remove the MFD section in the scenario file (from each BEGIN_MFD to its corresponding END_MFD) then the MFDs will not show up at all (ie, no power button, even).

As for MFD screens built into the cockpit: that depends on how you're doing them. If you're going for a RemoteMFD setup (see the threads on that in this forum) or something similar then you'll have to have them connect to the server. If you're using ExternalMFD you'll need some way of bringing it to the other screens before use.