Orbiter and Frontier

[Viatrix]

Hello, all. This is, I've no doubt, a well-worn question, for which I apologise. I haven't found anyone addressing it specifically on these boards, but I'm sure I just haven't searched well enough..

I've been enjoying Orbiter for quite some time now, and the new UCGO add-ons, particularly the Arrow freighter, have given it a new lease. I'm just in the process of setting up a base on Europa, using the basic base-bits included in the UCGO pack. Thoroughly enjoying myself, although I know it's a terrible waste of time. I'm also baffling myself with various extra MFDs in the hope I will - one day - be able to put a DGIV down somewhere in the same hemisphere as the base I'm aiming for. :thumbup:

But...

Like many of you, I'm sure, I miss Frontier. I love Orbiter for its flight mechanics, and the overall 'bigness' of space modelled. But... I so want to dock at a space station, check the message boards, take a mission or two, buy some cargo, undock, jump to another system, set the autopilot, fight a pirate or two, and then maybe coast down to the surface of a destination planet, with hills and oceans, and land at a nice detailed (ish) city spaceport to sell my wares.

Realistically, I think we must all accept by now that Elite 4 is never going to happen. And I'm not sure there's much more to be said for the ever-in-development Infinity. And before I say the next bit it's important that you understand I am not a programmer: my coding skills extend no further than 10 print "hello"; 20 goto 10.

I was always struck by how small Frontier was as a game, yet how big as a game world. That whole galaxy, in all its epic detail, on a couple of floppy discs. First Encounters maybe a wee bit bigger, thanks to better (ish) graphics. I know that the procedural generation of stars and planets in these games meant that only a handful of systems needed to be hand-coded - and it strikes me that Orbiter fans have easily exceeded that task with the number of addon tools, ships, systems and planets they've produced.

So my question is: is it within the realms of possibility that Orbiter - or at least the basic mechanics of Orbiter - could be integrated into a full-scale game, which would allow the player to create a character, then fly around an extensive galaxy of star systems, trading, mining, doing whatever..? To be honest, I wouldn't be particularly concerned as to whether combat was modelled - the flying and exploring was always my favourite part of Frontier anyway. The freedom of it kept me coming back, and still does occasionally, even though the graphics are distinctly creaky now - but it constantly surprises me that, for their own genre of game, these fairly ancient titles have never really been improved on.

Any thoughts? Flames for tediousness or ignorance?

In any case, thanks for reading.

Vx.

 

[Urwumpe]

Orbiter is a full simulator game...

Also, you should maybe look at Vega Strike, if you need a more recent Elite.

You could do something like that in Orbiter, if you stay in the same solar system. Multiple solar systems are not supported.

 

[Coolhand]

So my question is: is it within the realms of possibility that Orbiter - or at least the basic mechanics of Orbiter - could be integrated into a full-scale game, which would allow the player to create a character, then fly around an extensive galaxy of star systems, trading, mining, doing whatever..? To be honest, I wouldn't be particularly concerned as to whether combat was modelled - the flying and exploring was always my favourite part of Frontier anyway. The freedom of it kept me coming back, and still does occasionally, even though the graphics are distinctly creaky now - but it constantly surprises me that, for their own genre of game, these fairly ancient titles have never really been improved on.

Any thoughts? Flames for tediousness or ignorance?

In any case, thanks for reading.

Vx.

If we dont see something like this in orbiter eventually i'll be very surprised and a little disappointed. There are a number of people interested in various aspects of this and addons underway to simulate a whole galaxy, or interplanetary economics, ideas for traffic control.. even combat addons and a nuke.

Will we see it before elite 4? unlikely... you may have something to play with before long if things just happen to work out.

Otherwise i would suggest FFED3D will cheer you up immensely. its a direct3d update of first encounters with lots of funky new graphics.

http://www.spacesimcentral.com/ffed3d-f53/

 

[garyw]

What Urwumpe said. Orbiter isn't built for that, it's actually more of a physics engine that has some graphics on top.

What you are seeking isn't available in orbiter but is available in other games like Universal Combat

 

[Urwumpe]

Yes, but you can develop add-ons to turn orbiter into something close to it, if you can live with the limitations of the engine.

---------- Post added at 01:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:22 PM ----------

And BTW: There is also ASCII Sector. Sadly not in a Orbiter MFD version for long days in space.

http://www.asciisector.net/

 

[Viatrix]

garyw said: "What you are seeking isn't available in orbiter but is available in other games like Universal Combat"

I will have a look at Universal Combat, but I understand it's a descendant of Battlecruiser Millennium, and I spent a lot time trying to stabilise that game on my PC with no success. Shame, too, because I would have loved playing it.

Still, I guess my question was just whether anyone had considered mapping out an 'Orbiter-as-space-trader' project in terms of what would be needed. Looking at some of the add-ons available and speculating on what might be, I'm pretty confident - even as a non-programmer - that they could be integrated into a full 'game' of sorts. Maybe we wouldn't be looking at epic production values, but most of what made FFE great could be put in there, along with what makes Orbiter great. I think that'd result in something pretty special. I'd love to put myself forward to look at it myself but, as I said, programming just doesn't fit well in my brain.

We've got a basic physics engine ('basic' as in, "forming the foundation of the game") that gives us the ability to move round a star system pretty convincingly. Orbiter seems happy to handle a reasonable handful of objects all in independent orbits, so I'd wager it'd be happy to model a sizeable star system plus space stations and a few other ships. Orbiter's graphics and lighting are - in my view - pretty impressive already. Certainly impressive enough for an Elite IV substitute.

We've got Msss MFD which can - if I'm reading it correctly - create procedurally generated systems on the fly; albeit you seem to have to reload the scenario to access them (I've only used it a day or so). Is there any reason why that restart couldn't be made to happen behind the scenes of the game, say while the player is enjoying a fancy 'witch-space' sequence?

We've got complex MFDs that can already handle flight paths, autopilots, rendezvous, docking, plane alignments and synchronisation, plus navigation computers that can plot courses around multiple bodies...

We've got Orulex, which applies terrain mapping to planetary surfaces - either hand-designed or procedural (if I've read the details right).

We've got UCGO, which handles crew and cargo management better than ever before

So what do we lack so far? We'd still need an engine that could generate environments in smaller detail depending on where we were. Flying into a new system, it creates and places the system bodies. Flying into orbit around one, it generates the planetary surface map. Approaching the surface, it creates terrain maps and applies more detailed textures. Fly over a city and it generates buildings as we go; maybe adding a few more ships if it's a busy world. Land at a spaceport and it generates buildings we can walk into, people we can meet, missions we can accept; and so on. The detail 'bubble' around the player gets ever smaller as we get closer to the ground, but - if I understand procedural generation correctly - the detail in one place can still be reconstructed from seed values if we pass that way again.

We'd need a system that could keep track of a player character: his or her name, perhaps other details if we want to introduce a roleplay element (although Elite managed fine with just a name); bank account; mission log; maybe combat and legal status; and so on.

I'm not sitting here saying "this should be done". I have not the first clue how one would set about doing it, so I've no right to say that. I suppose I'm really just fantisising aloud, and making the point that if someone out there were to embark on such a project, there would be at least one person who'd support it hugely. And if I had a real wishlist, I'd love to see remote mining machines, asteroid mining, gas scoops (to refuel or collect cargo to sell), and... exploration. The ability to fly out to as-yet unexplored systems, scan things, map things, name things... I love being able to name things. :thumbup:


Urwumpe said: "Yes, but you can develop add-ons to turn orbiter into something close to it, if you can live with the limitations of the engine."

And I think I pretty much can, because it's the physics I want to see in an Elite-style game. I was never good at combat in FFE, it's true - but once the patch turned up that added RCS thrusters (side-to-side, up and down, etc), FFE suddenly became a whole different game. I was still crap at it, but I enjoyed being crap more than I had. :lol:

"And BTW: There is also ASCII Sector. Sadly not in a Orbiter MFD version for long days in space."

That would be pretty cool. I've been having a look at ASCII Sector, and I've got to say, I'm quite impressed. I admit, I've never really been one for this argument that Graphics Don't Matter - to me they do, although gameplay does come first. Still, I find I'm a little dissatisfied with FFE now because I've seen the graphics on, say, Flight Simulator X, Orbiter, EVE Online, and so on (and yes, I know there're far flashier games out there than those, but they're not my genre, as a rule).

 

[garyw]

garyw said: "What you are seeking isn't available in orbiter but is available in other games like Universal Combat"

I will have a look at Universal Combat, but I understand it's a descendant of Battlecruiser Millennium, and I spent a lot time trying to stabilise that game on my PC with no success. Shame, too, because I would have loved playing it.

Indeed it is but it's a much more mature product. I'll be honest and say that it has a steep learning curve but I find it immense fun. Doesn't hurt that it is free either!

 

[jedidia]

We've got Msss MFD which can - if I'm reading it correctly - create procedurally generated systems on the fly; albeit you seem to have to reload the scenario to access them (I've only used it a day or so). Is there any reason why that restart couldn't be made to happen behind the scenes of the game, say while the player is enjoying a fancy 'witch-space' sequence?

Because the system architecture isn't dynamic. I.e. you can't change a solar system once it's loaded, so you have to reload the whole of orbiter, allthough MsssMFD does that for you, so all you really have is a loading interval when you enter the new system, which is pretty normal. In Orbiter 2010, where planetary textures are loaded dynamically, the loading time is quite short.

Besides that, Msss is a beautiful proof of concept, but not much more than this. I'm currently using the basic idea to turn it into something more mature, take a look here: http://www.orbiter-forum.com/showthread.php?t=9428

 

[Urwumpe]

So, you just want a "game universe" in a solar system with trade and maybe some politics? Or maybe also colony building?

For most elite like games, even with newtonian physics, orbiters engine would be over-kill, the universe is maybe more limited, but each m³ of universe contains more forces and effects. You won't get much joy.

I think you could extend "World of 2001" to a point to be a Orbiter Elite, because many problems are already solved, but that would still be a long way to go.

 

[River Crab]

Still, I guess my question was just whether anyone had considered mapping out an 'Orbiter-as-space-trader' project in terms of what would be needed. Looking at some of the add-ons available and speculating on what might be, I'm pretty confident - even as a non-programmer - that they could be integrated into a full 'game' of sorts. Maybe we wouldn't be looking at epic production values, but most of what made FFE great could be put in there, along with what makes Orbiter great. I think that'd result in something pretty special.

Someone HAS in fact tried at an Orbiter space trader project. It was called Manifest Destiny, and unfortunately seems dead. It's a darn shame, because I thought they were on to something. Combining simulator with game, and invoking deeper immersion through realistic physics, not just flashy graphics. That was the idea, I believe, and you've stumbled upon it again. I think it's a very good idea. :tiphat:
BUT, on the other hand, I don't expect it happening too soon. There is really so much stuff needed to make this kind of thing, and there's a really limited audience. You'd be hard-pressed to find a group of self-managed, un-paid cowboy coders driven enough to follow through. I'd love to be proven wrong, here. Of course, Dr. Schweiger did make a little game in the first place, and there was this Dan, and this Doug...

Don't despair though: While Manifest Destiny tried to build off the Orbiter core, currently Orbiter is closer to many of those things with newer add-ons, as you have said. In addition, Orbiter Colonizer project aims for something relevant and is currently under way. We already have miners, btw. As for interstellar, Orbiter Galaxy seems the closest thing, as jedidia said. I don't know about interstellar trading, but trade within a system (not necessarily ours) seems to be pretty close.

Thanks for the thought-out reply. You have a good disposition (IMO at least), and your idea is not forgotten. :hail: and may the be with you!

 

[Viatrix]

Otherwise i would suggest FFED3D will cheer you up immensely. its a direct3d update of first encounters with lots of funky new graphics.

Thank you for that, it does look quite an improvement. I'll have a good look at it when I get a couple of hours.

(Universal Combat)has a steep learning curve but I find it immense fun. Doesn't hurt that it is free either!

Woosh. Big download! No matter, though: I'll have a look at that, too, when I get a minute. Thanks.

Besides that, Msss is a beautiful proof of concept, but not much more than this. I'm currently using the basic idea to turn it into something more mature, take a look here: http://www.orbiter-forum.com/showthread.php?t=9428

I love your Galaxy generator... Really. I do. I hope you get chance to develop it further because if that can be integrated into Orbiter the potential is enormous, though I can imagine it's difficult to develop these things in spare time so I won't rush you... Much.
:woohoo:

So, you just want a "game universe" in a solar system with trade and maybe some politics? Or maybe also colony building?

I think I'd probably extend 'solar system' to several... As I say, I do love the exploration side of things! But I'm not greedy. One is better than none.

In general, though, yes; I have been dabbling with colony building using UCGO (but have cheated a bit since I've been using RWarp as well - I know, I know: terrible boo for unrealism*). But a persistent trade economy between ground bases and space stations; the ability to take on contracts and a generator that keeps producing more contracts to take; or just free trading around the game world either buying and selling or selling collected (mined/scooped) resources... These would be good.

As to politics, to be honest I'd be just as happy if the political state was static, as it was in FFE: I always felt the political background of FFE worked in terms of immersion even though it didn't actually do a great deal.

(* I'm not sure 'unrealism' is actually a word.)

Thanks for the thought-out reply. You have a good disposition (IMO at least), and your idea is not forgotten.

Thank you, it's nice of you to say so. :tiphat:

I'd like to say a general thank you to those who've taken the time to reply and comment, I appreciate your thoughts. Apologies if I've not answered you, or if I've rambled on too much. I am a talker when I get started, I'm afraid. Also for excessive use of these rather groovy smilies.

I will continue to watch out for suitable add-ons and see where the community takes Orbiter next. Actually, in a way it's kind of like the human space endeavour in the real world: all this progress being made in small, tentative, but valuable steps - and me sitting here thinking "but I want an FTL drive already!". Patience: it is a virtue. :thumbup:

:hail: and may the be with you!

And also with you, no doubt about it.

 

[Enjo]

What? Did somebody say he misses Frontier?
http://pioneerspacesim.net/