New Release Interplanetary Modular Spacecraft RC9

Do you have damage simulation enabled in the orbiter launchpad? IMS checks that flag to decide whether to simulate failures or just let things run no matter what. In which case the systems MFC is the most useless thing ever.

Also, that pic is hilarious :lol:

Yes I thought you would like it, the first IMS related Orbiter Demotivator. I was pretty sure I did have damage/failure enabled, but Ill have to check in order to be sure.

I have a lot of things to bring up today. If my blathering is getting to be too much, I can just post this stuff in the IMS group, but things have been so quiet there that I didnt think anyone would notice.

While reading through some of the discussions in our IMS usergroup, I noticed one discussion about chemical engines and their cooling consequences. You said that the space shuttle had to open its doors right after achieving orbit, since the radiators needed to begin disposing of all the waste heat produced by the SSMEs right away. How exactly did an Apollo SIVB stage deal with the similar waste heat from its TLI burn? One source I read said that transposition & docking was an hour after the end of TLI, by which time you would think the CSM would be roasted.

What exactly would a cooling specific module contain in terms of equipment? I understand the purpose of a radiator, but wouldnt physical contact be enough to transfer the heat anyways?

Would it be feasible to create a module that generates electricity from heat? If the MCS is capable of directing thermal energy to particular spots (say by transferring it through water conduits), couldnt you build a small steam generator in order to recoup some of it as electricity?

I have configs working for IMS, SSBB4.1, the Piper Modules, and Building blocks 2006. I highly reccomend the piper modules for its really cool communications module, but I may have dug up a problem with SSBB 2006. While building the Audacity, I tried installing a hydroponics module from that package, only to have it give me no output when powered up. Were there any changes to config structure along the way that might have made old configuration files not work?

Has anyone tried creating an ion engine in IMS? I'll have to see if I can design one that uses LH2 fuel. If not, that will be another item on our list to add. I figure that at one point or another, we will need to add HTP, Hydrazine, Argon (or some other ion specific fuel), LOX/Methane, and at least one type of storable fuel to what IMS supports.

Meanwhile, Im working on a couple of parts for IMS. I have 3 types of command modules, some smaller fuel tanks, and a "bend node" in the works. Bend node should help when you want to turn a corner without adding all the extra ports.

Hopefully I can get the Audacity working soon so I can post some screenies. Oh the cooling troubles :rolleyes:
 
I would like to go the individual "Trademark" route. It seems to make the most sense to me by virtue of keeping similar parts together. SSBB4.1 might not play well with a different module set like the piper modules in areas like scale & function, so I would prefer to keep them separate. This would also be a good structure to introduce for when future config writers want to create a specific ship out of a module set, like a USS Enterprise assembled in sections. Having to pick out a saucer section from the hab modules wouldnt make sense would it? ;)

The problem is that Scenario Editor is ill-suited for building multi-modular vessels. You have to walk the long path through all the menus and tree branches to the module you wish to create and when it's spawned the window simply switches into vessel's properties and you have to walk the whole path from the beginning. It's really annoying when you need a few dozens of similair modules to be spawned. Sometimes I use copy/paste, modifying scenario files, sometimes I just sit and click like crazy. The way you propose there will be at least one click more needed to get to the module of choise. While it seems not much, it will make me a few percent more angry per each module of a hundred-piece construction :chainsaw:

The way I propose will make the same click-rate per module, but it will make selection easier since there will be less modules in a functional folders. We could rename config files too to make modules of different sets to be distinctive. For example:

\Config\Vessels\IMS\Radiators
IMS_Radiator_64.cfg
IMS_Radiator_336.cfg
SSBB2006_Tpanels1_Radiator.cfg
SSBB41_BR101_Radiator.cfg
SSBB41_BR200_Hi_Temp_Radiator.cfg
Piper_RadiatorTruss.cfg

Preview pictures will help user to see if the hab is a saucer or a beer can or anything else.

Both ways are half-measures anyway. What we really need is our own IMS-aimed Scenario Editor (or at least module spawner).


I have a lot of things to bring up today. If my blathering is getting to be too much, I can just post this stuff in the IMS group, but things have been so quiet there that I didnt think anyone would notice.

Well, I'm subscribed to it, so I will notice it anyway. But posting stuff here makes more chance for some random person to stumble upon it and give it a try. PROFIT.

Would it be feasible to create a module that generates electricity from heat? If the MCS is capable of directing thermal energy to particular spots (say by transferring it through water conduits), couldnt you build a small steam generator in order to recoup some of it as electricity?

As for heating with coolant, the main problem here is that we don't simulate the coolant temperature. It just transfers heat. It could potentially create a situation when colder module will be heating a warmer module which will result in a break of thermodynamics laws and hence in destruction of the Universe as we know it. You have to be careful with such stuff you know.

I have configs working for IMS, SSBB4.1, the Piper Modules, and Building blocks 2006. I highly reccomend the piper modules for its really cool communications module, but I may have dug up a problem with SSBB 2006. While building the Audacity, I tried installing a hydroponics module from that package, only to have it give me no output when powered up. Were there any changes to config structure along the way that might have made old configuration files not work?

There were some problems with hydroponics configs but it was fixed some time ago. I'll give it a try.

Has anyone tried creating an ion engine in IMS?

There were an Ion Cluster engine in early IMS beta releases, I don't remember why Jedidia took it out of the pack.

I'll have to see if I can design one that uses LH2 fuel. If not, that will be another item on our list to add. I figure that at one point or another, we will need to add HTP, Hydrazine, Argon (or some other ion specific fuel), LOX/Methane, and at least one type of storable fuel to what IMS supports.

There are four types of each size of fuel tanks in SSBB41 pack and only two types of fuel supported. Because of that reason I rearranged BTank102 and BTank203 into LOX-Methane (LOX_LCH4) fuel tanks. I'm using density of 820 kg per cubic meter for this propellant. There are Minicoupler with LOX_Methane tanks in my OBS pack too. I can post these configs here, but we have to think up a way of keeping config files similair for everyone. It was my responsibility to store, modify and deliver the latest config packs in IMS development group. I can do the same job again.

Hopefully I can get the Audacity working soon so I can post some screenies. Oh the cooling troubles :rolleyes:

Stay cool, man, stay cool ;)
 
The problem is that Scenario Editor is ill-suited for building multi-modular vessels. You have to walk the long path through all the menus and tree branches to the module you wish to create and when it's spawned the window simply switches into vessel's properties and you have to walk the whole path from the beginning. It's really annoying when you need a few dozens of similar modules to be spawned. Sometimes I use copy/paste, modifying scenario files, sometimes I just sit and click like crazy. The way you propose there will be at least one click more needed to get to the module of choise. While it seems not much, it will make me a few percent more angry per each module of a hundred-piece construction :chainsaw:

And then if your design doesnt work you feel like :chainsaw: even more! I know, I think we're stuck with that user friendliness bottleneck no matter what we do.

I hear your argument, but I still find it easier to group by "space company", particularly because different sets of modules dont play well together. SSBB 4.1 is a good set to start with, as its light, small, & flexible, but its modules dont play well with those found in SSBB 2006 - those things are huge! In any case, you have seniority in this project, so Ill defer to your judgement.

I've uploaded my config structure here, so please give it a try & let me know what you think; if you would still rather group all parts together let me know & Ill reorganize. Ive uploaded it here with the scenario file from my first successful flight with the IMS vessel Audacity!

View attachment IMS Config Update.zip

View attachment Audacity Emergency Changes made.scn



I had Kulches space elevator & a XR-1 in the scenario. If thats an issue for anyone I can clear those out.

Both ways are half-measures anyway. What we really need is our own IMS-aimed Scenario Editor (or at least module spawner).

I dont know about a scenario editor, but a spawner vessel for parts is definitely doable. Maybe we can get to that eventually.



Well, I'm subscribed to it, so I will notice it anyway. But posting stuff here makes more chance for some random person to stumble upon it and give it a try. PROFIT.

:thumbup:


There were an Ion Cluster engine in early IMS beta releases, I don't remember why Jedidia took it out of the pack.

If you can dig it up I would appreciate it.

There are four types of each size of fuel tanks in SSBB41 pack and only two types of fuel supported. Because of that reason I rearranged BTank102 and BTank203 into LOX-Methane (LOX_LCH4) fuel tanks. I'm using density of 820 kg per cubic meter for this propellant. There are Minicoupler with LOX_Methane tanks in my OBS pack too. I can post these configs here, but we have to think up a way of keeping config files similair for everyone. It was my responsibility to store, modify and deliver the latest config packs in IMS development group. I can do the same job again.

I can help manage configs too, but I think it would be nice to have an archive of them available in this thread. It was kinda hard to find them, since the trail of download links was broken in a lot of places.

Even if those fuel tanks have LOX_LCH4 densities IMS will still recognize them as LOX/LH2 right?
 
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SSBB 4.1 is a good set to start with, as its light, small, & flexible, but its modules dont play well with those found in SSBB 2006 - those things are huge!

Yeah. That's because Greg wasn't very careful about real scales of his vessels when he just started to create things for Orbiter. Try to dock Descartes DSV and Gilgamesh LST together and you'll see what I mean. (Hint: compare pilot seats size.) It's really sad he never decided to rescale his older models to adequate size. I made some rescales for my personal use, I also proposed a function for IMS to be able ro rescale modules on early development stages - all because of hugeness of SBB2006 modules. I still have in plans to make SSBB41-SBB2006 coupler module.

In any case, you have seniority in this project, so Ill defer to your judgement.

No, no, no, it's not woking this way :nono: It's about convenience, not seniority of any kind. Actually, I like the way you made it. Thinking of the problem I came to a conclusion that the main trouble with the current way configs are sorted is not the amount of clicks but rather a difficulty in finding a module you need in a loooooooong list of modules. I'll try to build something big this way and tell what I think.

Ive uploaded it here with the scenario file from my first successful flight with the IMS vessel Audacity!

Beautiful vessel. Nexiss loved to build such beasts, mine was the niche of small and functional vessel. Radiators placement would have been inappropriate if this thing were for real, but since we don't simulate secondary heating by radiated heat in current IMS version it doesn't really matter.

Even if those fuel tanks have LOX_LCH4 densities IMS will still recognize them as LOX/LH2 right?

Nope. As for now, IMS supports these kinds of propellants:

LOX_LH2 (liquid oxygen/hydrogen)
LH2 (liquid hydrogen)
Xenon
Argon
LHF (hydrogen-fluorine)
N2O2_N2H4 (Nitrogen Tetroxide/Hydrazine)
LOX_CH4 (liquid oxygen/methane)

It's another matter that there's no engines for all of these propellants except of the first two. I refitted my sidemount rocket engines for methane for my personal lunar missions, but I think it's better to create new engines for this purpose.
 
Offtopic:

It's just an object composed of variables, like a class, just that unlike a C++ class, you can't define any functions.

Wrong, a struct CAN have functions. Looks a bit strange but is not illegal - one result of the fact that C++ standards reward the decisions of stupid non-standard compiler designers. In C++, you have first the compilers and the source code written for them and then you get the standard for the non-standard stuff.

What you can't have is visibility options, virtual functions and all the other stuff that makes classes fun.
 
Offtopic:



Wrong, a struct CAN have functions. Looks a bit strange but is not illegal - one result of the fact that C++ standards reward the decisions of stupid non-standard compiler designers. In C++, you have first the compilers and the source code written for them and then you get the standard for the non-standard stuff.

What you can't have is visibility options, virtual functions and all the other stuff that makes classes fun.

Thanks for the clarification Urwumpe :thumbup:

Yeah. That's because Greg wasn't very careful about real scales of his vessels when he just started to create things for Orbiter. Try to dock Descartes DSV and Gilgamesh LST together and you'll see what I mean. (Hint: compare pilot seats size.) It's really sad he never decided to rescale his older models to adequate size. I made some rescales for my personal use, I also proposed a function for IMS to be able ro rescale modules on early development stages - all because of hugeness of SBB2006 modules. I still have in plans to make SSBB41-SBB2006 coupler module.

Yeah, its hard to know what to do with them, but I suppose they arent too bad to use, it just looks odd when you have airlock modules that are so big relative to the people inside. I dont really think further development on SSBB 2006 is worth it, its not that great of a pack, & the modules included are mostly just like SSBB 4.1. I have the Jelair & Mipts add-ons on my computer to convert to IMS. hopefully those will be nice.

It would be nice if we could eventually double check our specs on the SSBB 4.1, as they seem very light when compared to more realistic modules (like those in the Piper pack).


No, no, no, it's not woking this way :nono: It's about convenience, not seniority of any kind. Actually, I like the way you made it. Thinking of the problem I came to a conclusion that the main trouble with the current way configs are sorted is not the amount of clicks but rather a difficulty in finding a module you need in a loooooooong list of modules. I'll try to build something big this way and tell what I think.

Well, I just didnt want to come across as "I just joined this project, and its my way or the highway!" I appreciate you taking a look at my configs, I do think you'll find it a lot easier to use than our previous setup at least.

Beautiful vessel. Nexiss loved to build such beasts, mine was the niche of small and functional vessel. Radiators placement would have been inappropriate if this thing were for real, but since we don't simulate secondary heating by radiated heat in current IMS version it doesn't really matter.

:) Thanks! I had to do a major propulsion redesign to get it how I wanted it, but its not a shabby ship at all. At full thrust it gets 0.1-0.2 Gees, & it can give you quite respectable delta-vee numbers without needing any of those "Hyper Engines". The scenario included (sorry about the name, I had to add a string of fuel tanks along the ventral side to balance my CG 10 minutes before TMI) has it right before TMI in 2110. I flew it to Mars orbit, & I should be able to fly it back to Earth when the next transfer window opens.

The design is heavily inspired by this


Maybe the radiators could be designed to radiate on one side? I just hate having parts sticking off in every which direction.

Nope. As for now, IMS supports these kinds of propellants:

LOX_LH2 (liquid oxygen/hydrogen)
LH2 (liquid hydrogen)
Xenon
Argon
LHF (hydrogen-fluorine)
N2O2_N2H4 (Nitrogen Tetroxide/Hydrazine)
LOX_CH4 (liquid oxygen/methane)

It's another matter that there's no engines for all of these propellants except of the first two. I refitted my sidemount rocket engines for methane for my personal lunar missions, but I think it's better to create new engines for this purpose.

Good to know, I had thought Jedidia didnt have enough time to add anything besides LOX/LH2 & LH2 to the code. I think it would be worthwhile to reuse the sidemount configs for that though, the engine bells would look different, but not wildly so.

2 things I was wondering

Is there only one airlock on an IMS ship? I tried to do an eva to the aft engineering section while in Mars orbit, but I couldnt get in the back door. I can eva through it, but I cant get back in. Thankfully nobody died this time, since the EVA was short

I recall you made a lunar lander that worked well, except it sunk into the lunar dirt too far. Was there ever any way to add landing legs to IMS, or is that still in the works?
 
I'm sorry for sounding so stupid, but looking at the pictures, does this mean that this addon support multiple monitors?
 
Yeah, its hard to know what to do with them, but I suppose they arent too bad to use, it just looks odd when you have airlock modules that are so big relative to the people inside. I dont really think further development on SSBB 2006 is worth it, its not that great of a pack, & the modules included are mostly just like SSBB 4.1. I have the Jelair & Mipts add-ons on my computer to convert to IMS. hopefully those will be nice.

Hmm :hmm: There are so many station-building modules I've never tried yet.



It would be nice if we could eventually double check our specs on the SSBB 4.1, as they seem very light when compared to more realistic modules (like those in the Piper pack).

Well, Greg specified it many times in his manuals that his hardware is made of some futuristic materials and is meant to be lightweight. I think we should leave it this way - as a kind of a 'starter pack'. Let other packs be more realistic stuff.


Maybe the radiators could be designed to radiate on one side? I just hate having parts sticking off in every which direction.

That's what I asked Jedidia to make IMS to be able to once. He never had a time to implement it.
On the other hand, I'm not sure if it's possible in real life to force things to radiate heat in one direction only. Maybe some kind of [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoelectric_cooling"]TEC element[/ame] will match - but it's incompatible with our current cooling mechanism. If only radiators could be made to consume power for working :hmm: I can't say what will be their efficiency in this case though.

I think it would be worthwhile to reuse the sidemount configs for that though, the engine bells would look different, but not wildly so.

Agreed. Since sidemount engine is designed for lunar landers, it makes sense to make it working on methane.
What about engine bells? Is there any software to find the correct bell shape I need for my purposes? All my previous engines has pretty much random bell shapes, except of J-2XIM which is based on pictures from wiki.


Is there only one airlock on an IMS ship? I tried to do an eva to the aft engineering section while in Mars orbit, but I couldnt get in the back door. I can eva through it, but I cant get back in. Thankfully nobody died this time, since the EVA was short

It's an UMMU glitch - you can only use the airlock you walked out from. Or, maybe, the one which is active right now - can't remember. Just try to select another airlock on EVA MFC and then try to enter it.

I recall you made a lunar lander that worked well, except it sunk into the lunar dirt too far. Was there ever any way to add landing legs to IMS, or is that still in the works?

It's not implemented yet. What drives me crazy is the fact that it can be done just like that - I can make it by myself (I think :lol:), I just have to be able to compile the source. I posted a question about its compiling in IMS development group just yesterday, no answer yet.

I plan to make an IMS to read touchdown defining string from a .scn file when loading, use this data to create touchdown points when creating vessel and save this data in .scn when, well, saving. I think I have enough grasp on C++ to make these simple additions. I don't want to even try now to fiddle with UI, one will have to manually define touchdown points in a .scn file for the first time.
Maybe you could do this?
 
Well, Greg specified it many times in his manuals that his hardware is made of some futuristic materials and is meant to be lightweight. I think we should leave it this way - as a kind of a 'starter pack'. Let other packs be more realistic stuff.

So are the IMS modules supposed to be realistic, or just additions to the "easier" module sets? I would really like to build with realistic modules :thumbup:.

Agreed. Since sidemount engine is designed for lunar landers, it makes sense to make it working on methane.
What about engine bells? Is there any software to find the correct bell shape I need for my purposes? All my previous engines has pretty much random bell shapes, except of J-2XIM which is based on pictures from wiki.

I dont know off the top of my head, but ISP often appears to directly correlate to the nozzle length ratio (take a look at pictures of the F-1, J-2XIM, Apollo SPS, and Nerva in order)

Theres a really good website for this somewhere...

Found it:

http://braeunig.us/space/index.htm

That might help a bit, although I wouldnt worry about it too much. If in doubt, just create a wide engine bell; it might not be efficient, but you cant go wrong.

While youre at it, we could really use some small LOX/LH2 tanks for RCS, & a sort of descent stage tank to place underneath the lander hardware. None of the existing configs are suited for the job at all.



It's an UMMU glitch - you can only use the airlock you walked out from. Or, maybe, the one which is active right now - can't remember. Just try to select another airlock on EVA MFC and then try to enter it.

Im not sure if its a glitch, exactly. I'm familiar with adding multiple airlocks in a C++ project, and if I understand the process correctly, you only have one airlock to work with, but it can be moved to whatever docking port is currently active. IMS appears to only want to allow ingress through port 1, regardless of what port the EVA starts at.

It's not implemented yet. What drives me crazy is the fact that it can be done just like that - I can make it by myself (I think :lol:), I just have to be able to compile the source. I posted a question about its compiling in IMS development group just yesterday, no answer yet.

I plan to make an IMS to read touchdown defining string from a .scn file when loading, use this data to create touchdown points when creating vessel and save this data in .scn when, well, saving. I think I have enough grasp on C++ to make these simple additions. I don't want to even try now to fiddle with UI, one will have to manually define touchdown points in a .scn file for the first time.
Maybe you could do this?

Yeah Jedidia has been quiet lately.

I am able to load the source, but I never tried to compile it. I understand exactly what you want to do, & I think its very doable. If you create the code lines you want inserted & post them here, I'll add them to my copy of the source & try to compile it.

One little favour, I was wondering if you could answer the question I had about Apollo post TLI cooling that I posted earlier in this thread? I never got an answer on that.
 
I think your understanding of the quickness that the Shuttle's PLB doors needed to be opened is a bit exagerated. The Shuttle, and I dont remember the exact time, but it could survive with the bay doors closed for 2 hours at least. When things all went according to plan, you have the powered flight, then your had OMS 2, which would be what....like 45 minutes after MECO. The doors are still closed at this point. You had various things going on with the MPS during that time, but the doors were still closed, and even closed quite a bit of time beyond OMS2. The doors would be first opened generally speaking right about when it was about to complete its first orbit. And the thermal needs of the Shuttle Orbiter were a bit more demanding than the SIV-B of the Apollo because you have the entire spacecraft needing the cooling, not just an engine.

Now I can't say anything about how the SIVB actually did anything, I know almost nothing about that spacecraft and launch vehicle other than the basic stuff we all learned about the Apollo program, but as far as the Shuttle, there was no great hurry to get those bay doors open right after MECO. Of course I say that in a sort of cavalier fashion, but you know that the doors did need to get open sooner rather than later, there just wasnt such an immediate pressing need to open them after MECO because of MPS concerns or something. Plenty of stuff had to happen after MECO anyway to secure the mains before they could be stowed and then effectively shut off for Orbit ops.
 
Thanks for that note Cras :thumbup:

An important note to Jedidia, we have an issue that is keeping us from compiling the IMS source. I tried it on my copy last night, found 2 fixable missing files on my end, about 200-300 syntax issues with the code (I would assume they arent an issue, just stuff like unsigned/signed mismatches & loss of data), and one thing that I cant fix on my end.

Code:
1>IMS.cpp(9): fatal error C1083: Cannot open include file: 'vld.h': No such file or directory

For PeterRoss, we can easily implement the feature you wanted with touchdown points, as soon as I can compile properly. The two issues with the source that you can fix on your end are:

-Copy the UMMU sdk files from the example under docs/UMMU over to your IMS source folder & add them to the project.
-Download the EPP sdk from here [ame="http://www.orbithangar.com/searchid.php?ID=4976"]http://www.orbithangar.com/searchid.php?ID=4976[/ame]
I didnt know that Jedidia had already integrated EPP into IMS, but the problem wont be hard to solve. Once you make those two changes to the source, we just need that missing vld.h file from Jedidia :cheers:
 
I' solved all these fatal errors. :P VLD is a Visual Leaks Detector, I don't know how to use it, but downloading it and adding a path into Incudes wasn't very difficult. :lol: The ONLY fatal error I have not solved yet is the absence of IMS.rc .

---------- Post added at 09:30 ---------- Previous post was at 06:51 ----------

So are the IMS modules supposed to be realistic, or just additions to the "easier" module sets? I would really like to build with realistic modules :thumbup:.

Me too. I suggest us to find more realistic-looking modules like those from Piper's pack and compose a realistic pack from these. What do you think?


While youre at it, we could really use some small LOX/LH2 tanks for RCS, & a sort of descent stage tank to place underneath the lander hardware. None of the existing configs are suited for the job at all.

You could use small fuel tanks from SSBB41 as RCS tanks. What shape should the descent stage tank be?



Im not sure if its a glitch, exactly. I'm familiar with adding multiple airlocks in a C++ project, and if I understand the process correctly, you only have one airlock to work with, but it can be moved to whatever docking port is currently active. IMS appears to only want to allow ingress through port 1, regardless of what port the EVA starts at.

It was tested quite thorough, I don't really remember such behaviour :hmm: I'm planning to have a big testing run on this weekend, I'll test all the things we've been talking about lately then.
 
Ok, back after 2 days of travelling and 2 days of ensuing sickness. Sorry for being a bottleneck.

VLD is a Visual Leaks Detector, I don't know how to use it, but downloading it and adding a path into Incudes wasn't very difficult. The ONLY fatal error I have not solved yet is the absence of IMS.rc .

Big oops. Forgott that I had Visual Leak detector in there, you could just have taken it out, but it's a really nifty tool to have, so no loss. The resource file... was plainly forgotten. It doesn't really do much anymore. Will upload as soon as I get the chance.

I think we're stuck with that user friendliness bottleneck no matter what we do.

As I said, a scenario editor derivative with IMS' needs in mind would fix that. You don't even need a direct connection to IMS, although some nice features could be implemented that way.

The basics I had in mind for such a thing are: easy creation of vessels, default starting page shows folder open, maybe with thumbnails, doubleclicking amodule creates module with some deffault name+index.
Creation of multiple modules by entering a number of modules of the same type to be spawned.
Copying of modules with same option.
Copying of stacks: You have a basic elements composed of several modules (trusses, tanks etc) that will show up several times in the construction. Spawn modules, dock stuff together, then copy entire stack. New modules will spawn docked the way the original was.

These things would be relatively easy to implement by some messing with the scenario editor source code.

What exactly would a cooling specific module contain in terms of equipment? I understand the purpose of a radiator, but wouldnt physical contact be enough to transfer the heat anyways?

No, you need a heat exchanger for that. Just physical contact is rather inefficient... However, that would be part of the radiator, not of the cooling module. The module would contain pumps, control system, pressure regulators and coolant storage.

Would it be feasible to create a module that generates electricity from heat?

Would need some additional coding, but it's mostly impractical anyways. Heat is a form of energy transfer, not energy by itself. You cannot convert it. You can use it to produce other kinds of energy, but in the process you'll accumulate more heat than you had to begin with. It is of course a feasible method to produce electricity from high temperature heat (as gaining electricity from heat depends on temperature gradient, but with low temperatures it is extremely impractical.
I wanted to implement something like this for NTRs, which can basically be employed as an RTG when idling, but I didn't get around to it. An NTR that serves as a nuclear reactor is not impossible, but requires some drastic design overhaul and carries significant weight penalties.

How exactly did an Apollo SIVB stage deal with the similar waste heat from its TLI burn?

Practically all the heat of the engine goes through the nozzle. The whole assembly has very humble power requirements, for which the surface area is a sufficient radiator. As far as I'm aware the heat buildup in the shuttle is not a result from its engines, but from its crew and onboard system (a crew of 7 and their live support is no mean deal at all...)

Has anyone tried creating an ion engine in IMS?

An Ion engine is just your basic electric engine: decent ISP, abysmal thrust, uses electricity to run (quite a decent efficiency in terms of power usage nowadays). As such all its properties are covered by the electric engine type, as is the VASIMR. The reason why the cluster wasn't included in RC2 is that I never got around to texturing it...

Generally re propellant types: the density is not actually coded into IMS. You give the density automatically when calculating how much kg of propellant it can hold. The propellant types are merely hard-coded for managment reasons.

'm sorry for sounding so stupid, but looking at the pictures, does this mean that this addon support multiple monitors?

It doesn't even support graphics clients yet... :( Orbiter works fine on multiple monitors in windowed mode, by the way.

On the other hand, I'm not sure if it's possible in real life to force things to radiate heat in one direction only.

That's no problem at all... Paint one side white, the other black, PROFIT!
It takes a bit more than that to minimize and maximize radiation of course, but it's not a problem. Lots of designes rely on one-sided radiators, but yes, I haven't gotten around to tackling this in IMS yet.
The major problem I could see with the Audacity is that her rear radiators would be blown right off by the surrounding engines :lol:

Or, maybe, the one which is active right now

That should be correct.

re: touchdown points. Yes, that shouldn't be too tough to implement (at least if they're static). Some things to consider:
Needs to handle the exception if the user adds more than three. Orbiter doesn't allow more than three, so if someone adds four, the program has to decide which ones to group together.
Not sure how touchdown points handle CoG shifting. Might need some manual shifting.
positions of touchdown points should be remembered absolute to the CM (as are the positions of docking ports, attachment points, exhausts, etc), meaning they have to be converted on integration. Look at the code for attachment points etc.
 
As far as I'm aware the heat buildup in the shuttle is not a result from its engines, but from its crew and onboard system (a crew of 7 and their live support is no mean deal at all...)

The Shuttle has many more or less specialized cooling systems, that should be said there.

You are right, the waste heat of the engine actually goes into the exhaust - the outside of the nozzle is so cold, that the exhaust (steam) freezes quickly against the cooling channels. The heat is used for heating the hydrogen fuel and increasing the efficiency of combustion.

But that isn't all. The computers and many electronic components are air-cooled and heat the cabin air as well. The life support system cools the air - it doesn't produce much heat itself.

The hotter subsystems in the cabin are installed on water cooling plates, that exchange heat with the active thermal control system (ATCS) as well.

In that sense, you should maybe correct some labels in your add-on: The cooling system is called TCS - thermal control system. It is a standard term in spaceflight engineering, all spacecraft have a TCS. You have two types, passive TCS (thermal blankets, reflective hull) and active TCS (cooling loops).

Also, the Shuttle does not only use the radiators for cooling the freon coolant in its ATCS loops. It also has flash evaporators (water is sprayed on the tubes and evaporated in the vacuum) and ammonia boilers (for landing, since flash evaporators don't work below 250,000 ft).

Also, the hydraulic system has its own cooling system for removing the enormous heat that is generated by compressing the hydraulic fluid to working pressure (Since hydraulic fluid is ideally incompressible, increasing pressure is only possible by increasing temperature as well). It uses Water Spray Boilers, which use a big barrel of water for cooling the hydraulic fluid and eject stream into space.

Why am I talking so much about it? There is more than just a general solution in spacecraft, and it is not uncommon to have special cooling systems for excessively hot subsystems. Must not appear in the main cooling loops, but might have instrumentation data to show that it really works and is not cold and stiff already.

If you really want fun, have "plumbing" operations in IMS, like additional loops and radiators activated in high-load situations, or have cold-soaking or reroute cooling when a module fails... :lol:

The Shuttle is maybe only as big as a 737, but you can already see well, how complex much bigger spacecraft will be by consequence. The ISS ATCS is not less complex than two different small chemical plants. (Russian side and US Side are different)
 
Why am I talking so much about it? There is more than just a general solution in spacecraft, and it is not uncommon to have special cooling systems for excessively hot subsystems.

Thanks for the input. I was aware of the complexities of a real-life cooling system, but IMS already suffered (and as a consequence didn't make it to stable release) quite a bit from feature creep...
 
Thanks for the input. I was aware of the complexities of a real-life cooling system, but IMS already suffered (and as a consequence didn't make it to stable release) quite a bit from feature creep...

Yes, but you can also understand it as an excuse for fighting feature creep. ;) "This module has already its own cooling system and works failsafe. Thank you."
 
I' solved all these fatal errors. :P VLD is a Visual Leaks Detector, I don't know how to use it, but downloading it and adding a path into Incudes wasn't very difficult. :lol: The ONLY fatal error I have not solved yet is the absence of IMS.rc .

Good to hear, but I did want to get a confirmation from Jedidia on that. It is always possible for him to have named his own file vld.h, which would have a function completely different from what you find on the web, so better to be sure.

Me too. I suggest us to find more realistic-looking modules like those from Piper's pack and compose a realistic pack from these. What do you think?

That would be great. I also have all of the station modules from the Orbiter Francophone site in my IMS folder. As many of them represent the individual components from the ISS, I was thinking it would be cool to create the ISS as an IMS vessel.

One minor note about the Piper package, that really cool Coms module I mentioned will only allow attachment & integration when its not docked. Must be a cfg error somewhere.

You could use small fuel tanks from SSBB41 as RCS tanks. What shape should the descent stage tank be?

Well, even just a mesh of the Apollo LM descent stage would be good, but you can try other designs too. (maybe mess around with some of the meshes in Mars For Less 1.6?) The issue with the current parts is that they A-dont look right on a lander, & B-dont fit functionally. The little tanks from SSBB 4.1 are too bulgy, & too small to be effective unless I stack 3 in a row. The big ones are just way too large to land with anyways. We really need parts that are flat & wide in order to make effective landers.

It was tested quite thorough, I don't really remember such behaviour :hmm: I'm planning to have a big testing run on this weekend, I'll test all the things we've been talking about lately then.

It could be a builders bug too :shifty:

The Audacities TEI window doesnt open up again for quite a while, so I'm starting work on a Jupiter vessel inspired by the Deepstar. Its not finished enough yet, but you'll get to see the Aquarius soon enough ;)





Ok, back after 2 days of travelling and 2 days of ensuing sickness. Sorry for being a bottleneck.

Not at all :thumbup:. We think of you more as a funnel, or something...

Shame to hear you werent feeling well.



Big oops. Forgott that I had Visual Leak detector in there, you could just have taken it out, but it's a really nifty tool to have, so no loss. The resource file... was plainly forgotten. It doesn't really do much anymore. Will upload as soon as I get the chance.

As I said, a scenario editor derivative with IMS' needs in mind would fix that. You don't even need a direct connection to IMS, although some nice features could be implemented that way.

The basics I had in mind for such a thing are: easy creation of vessels, default starting page shows folder open, maybe with thumbnails, doubleclicking amodule creates module with some deffault name+index.
Creation of multiple modules by entering a number of modules of the same type to be spawned.
Copying of modules with same option.
Copying of stacks: You have a basic elements composed of several modules (trusses, tanks etc) that will show up several times in the construction. Spawn modules, dock stuff together, then copy entire stack. New modules will spawn docked the way the original was.

These things would be relatively easy to implement by some messing with the scenario editor source code.

Please make sure to include vld.h in the next upload. I want to double check that IMS.rc was actually missing though. I feel like my copy had it right where it was supposed to be.

My experience programming with the scenario editor is nil, so I'll leave that up to you, but Im not sure it should be our number one priority just yet. I find that the bigger problem in design usually ends up being how to track down exactly what the problem is, but thats just me.



No, you need a heat exchanger for that. Just physical contact is rather inefficient... However, that would be part of the radiator, not of the cooling module. The module would contain pumps, control system, pressure regulators and coolant storage.

Hmm, I do have a fairly good understanding of thermodynamics, but it has been a few months since I really used it.

I suppose what Im saying is:

Is the MCS intended to create a preferential heat gradient? In other words, I would assume that the whole point of lugging pumps & pipes & whatnot up to space would be so that we can send heat to where we really want it. That would seem to indicate that, in theory, if we had the mother of all MCS systems installed, we could keep shifting waste heat into one puny 64m2 920K radiator until it vaporizes. (and then there would be trouble :lol:) If we have the ability to really move heat the way we want it, as quickly as we want it, we can just dump it into one little radiator until the thing is running at a molten 900K.

But that cant be right, can it?


An Ion engine is just your basic electric engine: decent ISP, abysmal thrust, uses electricity to run (quite a decent efficiency in terms of power usage nowadays). As such all its properties are covered by the electric engine type, as is the VASIMR. The reason why the cluster wasn't included in RC2 is that I never got around to texturing it...

Generally re propellant types: the density is not actually coded into IMS. You give the density automatically when calculating how much kg of propellant it can hold. The propellant types are merely hard-coded for managment reasons.

Texture that my man! I am finding our current stable of engines less than flexible for my maniacal plans...

Right, so the propellant types are more just for the display systems to show, and to ensure the right engines use the right fuels. Got it :thumbup:


It doesn't even support graphics clients yet... :( Orbiter works fine on multiple monitors in windowed mode, by the way.

I told him it probably could be done with the Master/Slave utility, although it probably hasnt been tested with IMS yet. Not a bad idea if it works, though :hmm: All of those views!

How high is graphics client compatibility on your list of priorities? I havent been able to get 2d panels of any kind working yet, so I cant really help, but it may become more pressing in the future. Some people are unwilling to use almost anything that doesnt work inh D3D9. :rolleyes:


That's no problem at all... Paint one side white, the other black, PROFIT!
It takes a bit more than that to minimize and maximize radiation of course, but it's not a problem. Lots of designes rely on one-sided radiators, but yes, I haven't gotten around to tackling this in IMS yet.
The major problem I could see with the Audacity is that her rear radiators would be blown right off by the surrounding engines :lol:

Actually theyre meant to retract during burns, but I got a bit lazy & left them open. Theyre high temp, meant to handle the waste heat from the NTRs (gas core I think?), but Im not sure that the engines waste heat is working, I dont get much of a cooling spike after burns at all.

She is an outstanding ship to fly, particularly because acceleration when fully loaded is 0.1 G. Not many IMS designs Ive seen so far can claim that much ease of use with such high capability ( ~14 KPS at least). At least not without cheating (yes the hyper engine counts as cheating :lol: )

The only issue was that damn consumeables storage I added along the bottom side 15 mins before TMI, when I realized the CG was way off. It keeps overheating & freezing, sending consumeable warning messages at me, even though I have regenerative supplies for all of my crew. Is there a way to stop those stupid warnings about consumeable depletion on the systems MFC?

That should be correct.

re: touchdown points. Yes, that shouldn't be too tough to implement (at least if they're static). Some things to consider:
Needs to handle the exception if the user adds more than three. Orbiter doesn't allow more than three, so if someone adds four, the program has to decide which ones to group together.
Not sure how touchdown points handle CoG shifting. Might need some manual shifting.
positions of touchdown points should be remembered absolute to the CM (as are the positions of docking ports, attachment points, exhausts, etc), meaning they have to be converted on integration. Look at the code for attachment points etc.

Ummm :uhh:, if a user adds three, I think the program will just ignore it, nobody needs more (not in this Orbiter version anyways)

Im sure a more complex solution can be put in later, but for now we're just going to have them defined manually in the scenario file.

Imagine my excitement when I found setclasscaps in the IMS source code :lol:! Jedidia really is mortal! I can edit this code!
 
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One more issue seems to have croppped up for me while building the Aquarius. I had quite a few issues in getting the centrifuge to run on it, but I was able to push through most of the forward section. Once I get to building the truss section though, IMS crashes any saves from that point on. Ive uploaded the Scenario files so that you can take a look.

View attachment Aquarius Issue.zip

I also suspect that there may be parasite ports somewhere in the centrifuge, as I cant start it up even with the power available.
 
This module has already its own cooling system and works failsafe. Thank you."

That is actually possible with the current setup. Had to be, pluging a nuclear reactor into the same cooling loop as the life support would have required a bit too much willing suspension of disbelief for my taste.

I would assume that the whole point of lugging pumps & pipes & whatnot up to space would be so that we can send heat to where we really want it.

That is the whole purpose, yes. But unfortunately, there's those pesky physics that tend to make stuff inconvienient.
But that cant be right, can it?

No, unfortunately it can't be right. Reason being, heat transfers only work from higher temperature to lower. You can't dump the coolant of your mainframe into a radiator that runs at 900K. Unless you build a mainframe that can run at above 900K, of course...

I am finding our current stable of engines less than flexible for my maniacal plans...

I totally agree there, but I don't have the time currently.

Right, so the propellant types are more just for the display systems to show, and to ensure the right engines use the right fuels. Got it

precisely!

How high is graphics client compatibility on your list of priorities?

The main problem is the function MeshTransform not being opened to graphics clients. It has to implemented in the code directly, which means it'll be a bit slow, but it works (as demonstrated by Dan). Then there's the problem with the panels not working yet with D3D9 client last I knew, this would have to be fixed on the client side. DX11 is not a priority at all, as it runs only on the Beta, and IMS will have more and more severe troubles with the Beta the further it develops.
Anyways, that one function is the only real thing to do, without it modules won't be rotated correctly.

but Im not sure that the engines waste heat is working, I dont get much of a cooling spike after burns at all.

That would be PeterRoss's revised configs. Due to a research glitch, NTRs had way too much waste heat originally. In real life they have practically none, because they use the exhaust for cooling. This brings some efficiency losses, but those are already accounted for in the specs you find about them.

Is there a way to stop those stupid warnings about consumeable depletion on the systems MFC?

Not if you don't have them in store...

Imagine my excitement when I found setclasscaps in the IMS source code ! Jedidia really is mortal! I can edit this code!

I felt pretty intimidated too when inheriting the code from vchamp. It's rather large, and a bit messy, but when you work a bit with it you'll start to find your way around.

Please make sure to include vld.h in the next upload.

That would a) not be legal, and b) completely useless without the rest of the library. You can just comment out the inclusion and the lines that will make trouble after commenting out the inclusion (not many at all) if you don't want to download it, but I stress again that it's a really great tool. Helped me to fix tons and tons of memory leaks in there.
 
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