I want to build this.

[OrbitalConfusion]

It looks pretty straight forward up until they talk about "proprietary Refrigerant" ... I was hoping somebody could chime in?


If I could actually make small amounts of LOX this is would be most helpful to me in designing a real engine to actually achieve my dream. Im sorry, solid rockets, KNO rockets, wont ever get me to where I want to go. I want to aim high and video capture my adventures. LOX is key in my minds eye to getting to where I need to. With LOX the door to higher altitudes opens. I also then can use other propellants that are not harmful to the environment.


So.. Any ideas on this? (inb4 you will blow yourself up)

 

[MaverickSawyer]

Hmmm... LOX is really tricky stuff to handle, let alone run an engine on.

 

[BruceJohnJennerLawso]

Hmmm... LOX is really tricky stuff to handle, let alone run an engine on.

Agreed. There are strong oxidizers, and then there is the oxidizer. Do not underestimate how dangerous handling it can be if things go wrong.

 

[N_Molson]

To design a "real engine" you will have to be comfortable with fluids mechanics, electromechanics, and metallurgy, amongst other things. You will need to shape a combustion chamber and a nozzle, design an injector plate, and plug pumps and wires into it, while achieving the good mixture ratio. And of course you need a remote spark igniter. So you will need an equipped workshop, and an exterior test stand where things can explode and take fire safely.

And yes, if you are not familiar with LOX, be very careful with. Not only it is very cold, which is already enough to cause severe burns, but as an extreme oxydizer, it will burn your skin and flesh by mere contact. Wear dedicated gloves, chemistry glasses, and other dedicated protective garments.

 

[OrbitalConfusion]

I am very familiar with the dangers of LOX. I also have built over the years a test stand on a remote piece of land I purchased. The stand has a rebar enforced concrete barrier should something go wrong. This coupled with a foxhole with concrete enclosure bunker ensures my safety. I have free access to a metal fabrication shop and 2 friends who are knowledgable in following plans. I understand LOX up's the ante for failure and problems not to mention cost. However, IF and a big if I figure it out my dream will be fulfilled. Sub-orbital, and breath taking views that I made, not somebody else. Anyways, so how bout that refrigerant question?! I have looked and looked..

 

[N_Molson]

Ah, now if you have a private launchpad and proper installations, that's already better.
To go sub-orbital, you will need something rather big, though. Are the laws of your state OK with this, is the downrange available ? If you don't declare such a launch and that your rocket shots down a civilian plane or kills someone on "landing", you will be sorry...

 

[Urwumpe]

The refridgerant is what Philips supplies for its medical gear. It is enough LOX for very small rockets, but you should be careful anyway, since the gear is not made at all for tanking rockets.

Read the safety sheet for LOX carefully. Really carefully. It is really dangerous. Even just having oil residue on the metal that you fabbed is enough for ruining your day. Once the reaction started, it is very hard to stop. There is a reason why real rocket engines have high-pressure Helium purged seals between LOX and fuel. Even using the wrong kind of steel can result in a thermal runaway. Stainless is not enough if you are doing more than just storing LOX at low temperatures, you need special steel alloys that usually make the FBI itchy when you order them. Only very few companies need steel alloys that operated at higher temperatures in oxygen-rich environment.

 

[llarian]

Beyond a certain size, you require permits even with solid fuel rockets. Almost all countries require permits for liquid fuel rockets, permits that are so rare outside of government agencies that liquid fuel rockets are effectively banned for private persons (or, frankly, are banned outright).

Yes, I know there are exceptions (the X-prize competition shows this), but even these efforts are beyond individual person capabilities.

Given official over-reaction to items that could possibly be used for terrorist purposes, it would not surprise me that even small scale solid fuel engines will soon be banned. Their reported presence in a device at a protest in New Brunswick, Canada, was used as an excuse for overboard police use-of-force.

 

[Zatnikitelman]

Doing a rather intensive Google search, I can't find anything to substantiate llarian's claim that liquid fuel amateur rocketry is inherently prohibited at least in the U.S. I also highly doubt that small model rocket motors will ever be banned since an ATF license isn't even required to make them.

 

[Quick_Nick]

In solid rocketry, you're usually restricted to a G motor without a license, and that's a fairly small motor. (Max 160N*s) And I believe you are expected to tell the FAA your plans if you will exceed 1000ft altitude.

 

[OrbitalConfusion]

Ok I give up.


This thread is completely derailed. the point of my initial post was the identify what this "proprietary refrigerant" is that they were using that would get cold enough to actually make the LOX. I wasn't asking about legalities, launch sites, or whether it was right or wrong. I guess that sounds kind of like a jerk response from me... Perhaps I should have said nothing more in my original post and just asked the question and gave no further elaboration. I hope nobody takes offense to any of this.


Anyways, thanks.

 

[PhantomCruiser]

I don't know anything about the legalities of it. But I'd worked around LOX for a while in one of my squadrons when I was in the Navy. I'd classify it as one of the top 5 things I'd relly not want to have anything to do with. Scary stuff.

LOX + petrolium product = Really Big Boom

One dude was a stickler for boots, "properly polished". I'd rather get griped at and have my evals suffer than have a pair of nice shiny boots sitting there on the deck while the 'cruiser's remains are being hosed down off the side of a building.

 

[Urwumpe]

This thread is completely derailed. the point of my initial post was the identify what this "proprietary refrigerant" is that they were using that would get cold enough to actually make the LOX.

..... :facepalm:

The type of refrigerant is completely secondary - it should operate at low temperatures, thats all.


Have you ever considered reading about the Linde process? Some background knowledge about LOX is necessary...

And the thread did not derail. Sorry, but you sound like a candidate for a Darwin award, and I am sure, somewhere deep in your subconsciousness, you know it.

And if you blow yourself up, you know what the consequences are? We all, who are interested in spaceflight will suffer for your enthusiasm and lack of professionalism. We will get new regulations, new laws, new constraints, that will eventually only reinforces the quasi-monopolies of the big aerospace-defense manufacturers.

And that is exactly what we don't want - we want the opposite. We want fair treatment and not ascent into space by climbing the piled up paperwork needed for building your own 50 kN engine.

So, maybe you understand: Failure is not an option.

 

[Artlav]

With LOX the door to higher altitudes opens.

If altitude is your goal, then you might want to try helium.
Getting a balloon 20-30km up is rather easy, and should require much less paperwork than a high-powered rocket.

You can even attach a glider to such a balloon, release it 30km up, and fly it back to Earth:

All of which is much safer and practical than home made LOX generator or cryogenic rockets.

 

[OrbitalConfusion]

Darwin award? lol Nahh.. hahaha! I am not wanting a huge quantity. Just enough to test... After deciding I wanted to get a little "space" of my own I bought books, attended relevant classes and learned as much as I could. I am still learning.


Yes, again, LOX is some nasty stuff. It requires the utmost respect in handling, storage, and its intentional firing Hence the test chamber. Regardless, my answer was given to me lastnight and I have almost finished making my LOX machine. I have to find my vac pump so I can evacuate my compressor and get it charged up with this stuff (I hope).

I am not out to nor will I "Rouge" fire a rocket. IF and a BIG if I get a stable engine, I will take my project to someone, show them what I have, and get the further help from a pro. Testing could take me 10 years or more who knows I may never have a working open cycle engine.

Anyways, I am sorry if I upset anyone. I do understand your concerns and where you are coming from. The navy's infamous "Burning Man" video has been stuck in the back of my mind now for 10 years or so.

 

[Artlav]

I have almost finished making my LOX machine.

If it works, i'd appreciate a description of the device.
DIY cryogenics are rare and hard to come by, many hobbyists would be interested.

 

[OrbitalConfusion]

If it works, i'd appreciate a description of the device.
DIY cryogenics are rare and hard to come by, many hobbyists would be interested.

I will be sure to share. If this works, it would feel so nice to give something truly useful back to the community.

 

[Quick_Nick]

"What if NOTHING happens?"

 

[OrbitalConfusion]

I am happy to say that my skin, extremities and important parts are all intact.


The quality, the amount of work and worry involved to allow the machine to run for 8hrs was just insane. I literally dug a hole, put some left over deck rocks on the bottom and sat the machine in said hole incase something happened.


The "LOX" was clear... It should have had a beautiful blue tint (purity?). However I did the cottonball test... Twice, and each time it Burst into violent flames. So I atleast know a percentage was LOX and that I did at least make SOME.

After double, triple checking my work... I dont know what went wrong, but I do know the paranoia of Kaboom became very real, and very scary. Yeah I know... Burning man much?


Anyways, Thats all I got.


Also, if this thread were to magically disappear, I would totally not be offended.