Science Hyperloop! - featuring Elon Musk (TM)

[Cosmic Penguin]

http://www.spacex.com/sites/spacex/files/hyperloop_alpha-20130812.pdf

As someone who has experience traveling on conventional high-speed rail and flying multiple times, this concept, if working properly at decent cost, will certainly blow either of these traveling methods away!

P.S. :hail:

 

[Keatah]

I had some kinda toy train or something like this when I was a kid. It had a centrifugal blower that would blow air around a series of tubes. And you could put action figures in it. I could send my men from one side of the house to the other just about instantaneously! The difference here was the setup, which looked liked a huge slot-car track, except it was a tube, relied on 100% flow choke.

 

[Zatnikitelman]

I find his insistence of the tsa-style security theater disgusting, but otherwise, it's an interesting concept.

One thing that worries me though about public acceptance is the lack of windows. This isn't like going into a subway tunnel, it's relatively cramped with the wall right there. The technology definitely bears watching.

 

[Keatah]

I'm reading through the report now, I wonder what kind of accident avoidance there is? And what happens when capsules crash into each other?

Sure it sounds simple, all powerpoint & pdf vehicles do, but blowing people through tubes like spitballs through a straw has got have all sorts of practical engineering hurdles and pitfalls.

 

[AlfalfaQc]

Yeah, I'm also reading it just now. The concept is really interesting, and it makes good sens (I'm not done reading yet but still). My only concern is also accidents... two capsules smashing at speeds of 700mph, that's not good. You also have to keep the passengers comfortable, and I'm not talking about only 25 years old person in good shape, but everyone, this looks like a hell of a roller coaster ride. But I'm not done reading yet, so I wont judge, and they will probably think of those things if it becomes more serious.

 

[thepenguin]

just read it. Absolute genius.

Given the advanced systems we are dealing with, I can understand the need for TSA-style security (but please let us keep our shoes.)

Imagining what a bomb would do to this system is horrific.

Explosive decompression + tube damage + traveling at supersonic speed + bomb = system shut down for days, if not weeks. Chances are that everyone on-board the vessel with the bomb would be dead or seriously injured.

 

[Keatah]

People want to see outside, This is a universal requirement with all forms of transport. Remember how the Mercury-7 guys bitched about not having a window? Remember how the airlines wanted to have you sit backwards and remove the windows entirely? All of that was no-go. So in this big spitball tube, how will this be done? Via some sort of videoscreen? I an imagine people with claustrophobia are gonna stay far away from this regardless of the advantages.

Personally I'd rather stick to telecommuting or some sort of slower (but more efficient) air transport. Or simply better planning so you don't have to run around as much in the first place.

---------- Post added at 05:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:18 PM ----------

I can think of all sorts way to vandalize this kind of transport system. And you've got a lot of mechanical complexities going on - therefore a lot of areas to cost-cut - and thus increase risk.

I wish this would have been a big plexiglass tube or similar, but a steel tube? That's boring..

 

[thepenguin]

People want to see outside, This is a universal requirement with all forms of transport. Remember how the Mercury-7 guys bitched about not having a window? Remember how the airlines wanted to have you sit backwards and remove the windows entirely? All of that was no-go. So in this big spitball tube, how will this be done? Via some sort of videoscreen? I an imagine people with claustrophobia are gonna stay far away from this regardless of the advantages.

Personally I'd rather stick to telecommuting or some sort of slower (but more efficient) air transport. Or simply better planning so you don't have to run around as much in the first place.

I really wouldn't care if they didn't have windows on the craft itself, so long as the cameras showed a realistic outside view. I can understand the mercury astronauts being mad, they had something to look at. Same for the airplanes. BTW, this is more efficient than any means of air transport (and cheaper too). Subways don't exactly have much to see, either. Maybe just put some windows on the sides of the tube so that we can see those wonderful steel tube walls? :facepalm:

 

[Keatah]

One has to ask about the energy need to construct this thing, let alone maintain it, all the welding and metal shaping, and the 25,000 concrete pillars, machining of all the parts. I see tons of costs right there.

At least this is better than that sub-orbital electromagnetically-launched train. Or that spinner thing, what what it again? Ah, yes, the Slingatron.

 

[fsci123]

I didnt read the whole pdf but how will they deal with emergencies inloop? What would happen if somebody has a heart attack or a stroke 15 minutes outbound? Can they pull the train out or could the reverse it?

 

[MattBaker]

I didnt read the whole pdf but how will they deal with emergencies inloop? What would happen if somebody has a heart attack or a stroke 15 minutes outbound? Can they pull the train out or could the reverse it?

How does an airline deal with it? Having emergency equipment and hoping for a doctor to be onboard.

The pdf says:

All capsules would have direct radio contact with station operators in case of emergencies, allowing passengers to report any incident, to request help and to receive assistance. In addition, all capsules would be fitted with first aid equipment.
The Hyperloop allows people to travel from San Francisco to LA in 30 minutes.
Therefore in case of emergency, it is likely that the best course of action would be for the capsule to communicate the situation to the station operator and for the capsule to finish the journey in a few minutes where emergency services would be waiting to assist.
Typical times between an emergency and access to a physician should be
shorter than if an incident happened during airplane takeoff. In the case of the airplane, the route would need to be adjusted, other planes rerouted, runways cleared, airplane landed, taxi to a gate, and doors opened. An emergency in a Hyperloop capsule simply requires the system to complete the planned journey and meet emergency personnel at the destination.

 

[Keatah]

I find his insistence of the tsa-style security theater disgusting, but otherwise, it's an interesting concept.

Well, it is hi-speed mass transit. You are going to need security in some form or other. What else would you propose?

 

[Zatnikitelman]

The same security that our railroads already have.

 

[Keatah]

Not good enough.

The higher speed, more stored kinetic energy, claustrophobic pods, less ability for the riders to move around.. And one mishap will kill many riders. This is a novel transport mode. Riders have zero control. This is more like air travel than subway travel.

You NEED airport/TSA style security. Not only do you need it at the stations, but along every meter of track. Too many crazies out there.

 

[Zatnikitelman]

So, why bother with the relatively strong inside? If someone wanted to cause damage, the better target is the structure itself from the outside. Do you really think they can seal off 700+ miles of tube? If something goes catastrophically wrong with a vehicle, at worst you'll have to shut down, pound the dents out of the tube while sweeping up the debris and mourn 28 people. An attack on the outside could shut it down for months while they have to rebuild, and could easily affect more than one vehicle. Any real security expert (anyone not affiliated with the tsa) would agree. City buses go without a checkpoint and carry far more people. Trains run around hundreds of thousands of miles of unguarded track carrying far more people without incident every day also without checkpoints. There is nothing novel about fixed-guideway transport. The technology is cool and new, but it's just like a railway, or monorail and those have been around for a hundred and fifty years.

 

[Hielor]

The "TSA security theater" works. There hasn't been a terrorist attack on a US airplane since it all started, so obviously it's working.

 

[Keatah]

For whatever funky reason I started thinking of Moonbase Alpha's transport tubes.

You also see things like this in Star Trek, and on Mars (Babylon 5). But since they are local they don't go as fast.

 

[Zatnikitelman]

Yea, because one guy's shoe wouldn't catch fire and the other guy's underpants wouldn't explode, not because of anything a bunch of fake cops did. You should know better, correlation doesn't equal causation. It's been 12 years since it all started, it had been 18 years since any previous hijacking on/over American territory. But this is definitely starting to dive into Basement territory away from the original topic. I'd be more than happy to continue to discuss tsa's laughable history in there.

 

[Urwumpe]

The "TSA security theater" works. There hasn't been a terrorist attack on a US airplane since it all started, so obviously it's working.

The next will come. It is not like the old TSA security theater stopped 9/11...

I think the concept has its merits, but it has too many ways for catastropic failure. Explosive decompression would be a lesser problem than explosive recompression (The air version of the water hammer). When a bomb explodes in the vehicle, it could also rupture the vacuum tube, and make lots of dense air rush in. Valves could reduce the effect, but these would be harder to include.

Also, about the lack of windows: Only few complain about having to spend 20 minutes in the 50 km long Channel tunnel.

But where I have to critize Musk: Speed means costs. A slower high speed train at 300 km/h would still have better chance to operate much cheaper than any aircraft at 900 km/h or his Hyperloop at 1200 km/h. A modern airport costs much more than the high-speed rail between SF and LA, even extending an existing airport with another runway exceeds the costs. And in the end, the real full system costs are what matters.

Also how does he do maintenance with his concept? He can only close the service all together for replacing a section of tube. There are no switches, no alternative third track. Does not sound very practical, especially in a region with frequent Earthquakes. This will again increase the costs.

 

[Eccentrus]

Well, talk about a Large Human Collider. I still can't see how a high speed object containing humans inside a loop can be safer than the current railroad system, I mean yes it significantly reduce the risk of derailing to close to 0%, but it is also very easy to put a nut and bolt and hope it will do much damage given the speed the thing's going.