Gun debate

A large fat guy who was 3 years older than me once wanted to gain respect of his gang by putting his whole weight me my feet and grin like a idiot. Took me only a small push with the should to topple him.

Raw force and mass is useless (like also with guns). When you can use what you have, only few people can annoy you.
 
Tools in general, and weapons in particular, have symbolic value as well. The argument that a gun or sword is no different than a bulldozer seems to miss this point altogether.

Weapons are made for one thing. It's not for target practice or wall decoration. They're made to injure and/or kill - period. Some for providing meat for the table, others for offense/defense against other humans. Either way, the motivation seems pretty clear. Using them for other purposes remains a secondary function to their intended purpose.

I think considering the symbolic value of guns is important here. Just consider the volatile nature of this discussion (closed twice, and reopened anyway?) and think about why it wants to get out of hand.

Guns are really weird, in that from a symbolic perspective, there always remains the question whether or not it is as it appears. Yes, it's a gun, but is it really loaded? Even when fired, it's not like an arrow or a spear - the projectile moves so fast, you can't ever see it (though shooting a shotgun is a bit different as you can see the pellets dispersing). The sound of a bullet whistling past for many is more surreal than frightening. This has been my experience as well.

An unsheathed sword or knife doesn't leave any doubt about risk being faced.

I still think the biggest problem with guns is inseparable from the symbolic value they possess. It makes cowards brave, and creates far too much "collateral damage." The shooting in the Phoenix classroom last week had one intended target - but two other students were hit "by stray" bullets. It would have been far braver for that boy to have punched the other in the nose than pull a gun and start shooting.

Guns also normalize violence in ways that can't be healthy. The last time there was "drive-bys" in the US was during Prohibition, and guess what - people got kind of used to it then, too.

What about these symbols then makes you so passionate about the subject?
 
Strength is much less important in friendly wrestling where choking, biting, scratching, eye-gouging, knee and elbow strikes, and other high-and low-blows are restricted.

But when two relatively unskilled people are trying to kill each other, size and strength does count. Perhaps Will and Skill are primary, but it isn't easy if the other guy is huge.

One of the arguments often given for guns is that they eliminate any physical advantages (size, speed, skill, and will) your attacker has (assuming they don't have a gun pointed at you too). Remember how Indy shot that master swordsman in Raiders?
 
Remember how Indy shot that master swordsman in Raiders?

Yes. In real life, he would have had problems doing it that sloppy. :P
 
Yes. In real life, he would have had problems doing it that sloppy. :P
Well if it was real life one of the Egyptians who Indy was fighting would pull a gun on him first.

I wouldn't say Hollywood is doing the world a disservice in showing idiots how to miss with guns. Think about the new idiots who will try to 'curve' bulltets because of some new movie.

 
Tools in general, and weapons in particular, have symbolic value as well. The argument that a gun or sword is no different than a bulldozer seems to miss this point altogether.

*sigh*

I guess my subpoint with that was that when a person kills someone with a gun, the gun gets blamed. Reading the news reports sometimes will lead you to believe the person had no will of their own, the weapon 'possessed' them and made them carry it around so it could do it's evil. When a person intentionally runs over another person with a bulldozer, usually the driver gets blamed (sometimes the victim, but that's a whole other argument).

And some of the old guns I've seen (19th century vintage) are definately works of art that deserve to be displayed.

enough of the guns ... I'm off to try to work up possible textures for the XR2 big-gulp cup. :cheers:
 
Yes, it's a bit like driving by a horrible accident isn't it Biscuit? Can't help but have a little look. I hadn't thought of the girl from Evergreen and the Israel incident when you used the bulldozer as an example. Point made.

It also validates what I meant by "symbolic value." While the bulldozer indeed can be used as a weapon, it's generally not the first place someone goes when thinking about them.

I doubt many people think of target practice when they see an AK-47 either.

Still, I'm fascinated by the reaction this topic has raised for various posters. If only people could get so passionate over more socially progressive things.

How about it? Let's go for free birth control for all! Chant with me please.
 
I guess my subpoint with that was that when a person kills someone with a gun, the gun gets blamed. Reading the news reports sometimes will lead you to believe the person had no will of their own, the weapon 'possessed' them and made them carry it around so it could do it's evil. When a person intentionally runs over another person with a bulldozer, usually the driver gets blamed (sometimes the victim, but that's a whole other argument).

Is actually not completely wrong. Power is a drug. Some people are disciplined enough to withstand the addiction and keep a clear mind, others fall. Of course you can't be possessed by the demon ghost of the weapon - but you can be possessed by the power it gives you over other people.

And like all drug addicts, the reactions can be come erratic once you attempt to remove the drug.
 
Amen on the shotgun as the best home defense weapon. There's just nothing like the sound of jacking a 12 gauge for its deterrent effect.

I find that as I get older, shotguns are the only kind of weapon that keeps increasing in my collection. In the last few years, I probably fire 500 rounds of shotgun ammunition for every round of pistol or rifle ammo.

But personally, for home defense, I rely more on the claymores we embedded in the walls when we remodeled the house.
 
... I'm off to try to work up possible textures for the XR2 big-gulp cup.

How about it? Let's go for free birth control for all! Chant with me please.
That's the spirit! We'll be so happy from the sucrose rush and fornicating to worry about harming each other ;).
 
But personally, for home defense, I rely more on the claymores we embedded in the walls when we remodeled the house.

Greg make sure you don't have any nice paintings in the way of those claymores. Also they do a number on the drywall and framing on the other side, question are your's hidden behind the wall or just recessed and uncovered?
 
You still have to bring the shotgun in the rough direction. Sounds easier as it is in real life.

It is easy. I've already clocked myself (I'm a sad person, aren't I? :) ) at about 1/4 of a second to get a picture on a target from a relaxed holding position (just holding it in one hand by my side). I can get much less than that when the weapon is already shouldered (which it would most likely be during the home-invasion situation). There is really no reason why some other average person couldn't get at least twice that time (about half a second).

There is also another factor in this situation: the layout of the house. Some homes have a naturally easier layout when it comes to a firefight/standoff. Others, not so much.

And when counted wrong, you hold one of them in check, while the other stands behind you. Guess who will have the best chances to survive this then.

That's rather situation specific. Most home invasions that I've read about in the news and elsewhere were typically conducted by a single person. It's also home-layout specific.

Even when you use a shotgun, and don't need to aim good, you should still move the bad end of the gun away from your feet. If you are next making a noise like a love-hungry elephant, while sneaking up on the intruder, guess how good your chances are to get that far.

Indeed, your chances of sneaking on the intruder are slim. However, the whole point of using a firearm is to keep the subject well out of grappling range, where you can "control" them. A long rifle/shotgun inside of grappling range is essentially useless unless you intend on bashing the guy's head in (or you intend on getting your head bashed in).


Actually it's a bit of a myth that you don't have to aim with a shotgun. Like with all weapons, it must be brought to bear although the range at which you will use it means that you can aim only with the front sight - but at <5 meters range, you do this with any firearm

True, I was exaggerating a bit. Any gun (I hate that word...) needs to be aimed (to a degree).


Trust me strength really doesn’t matter, if you have enough martial arts training you can defend against nearly anyone, once got in a fight with a kid twice my size who was on the football team, he charged me and tried to punch me a joint lock and choke hold later he was on the ground incapacitated.

Pretty impressive :cheers:. Although, you've got to admit: most people in school (and out in "the real world") can't fight worth a dang (some fights are just plain hilarious). I find it funny in my school how a buch of kids always join either the football or wrestling teams in order to look tough. In fact, my friend (who is on the wrestling team), decided one day that he would take me on in a friendly spar. It was a simple act of landing a punch on his face (things that the person is not used to typically catch them off guard) and throwing him head-first into the ground. :)


Happened to me too. I tripped him and ran away. Later I put itchy power in his swimsuit.

:lol: Now that is cruel.


Tools in general, and weapons in particular, have symbolic value as well. The argument that a gun or sword is no different than a bulldozer seems to miss this point altogether.

Very true. As GregBurch said, the simple act of racking the weapon (thus making a loud and familiar sound) can send chills down people's spine.



GregBurch:But personally, for home defense, I rely more on the claymores we embedded in the walls when we remodeled the house.

:lol: Bet your wife loved that. Just dig a big hole before you set those suckers off.
 
Sigh, the old gun debate.

If we didn't have guns, we'd have more crossbows and spears.
 
EDIT...Nevermind.

I get along with folks on this forum, so I think I'll try to stay out of trouble. Most of you know where I stand on this, anyway.
 
If we didn't have guns, we'd have more crossbows and spears.
Yes, but at least we wouldn't have gun-debates! :lol:

We Swiss don't need guns. We have pocket knifes! But we get the gun anyways from the militia. For free, and we're even FORCED to take them home. until recently even with ammo (and we're talking assault rifle with serial fire and muzle velocity close to sonic speed here... that's right, the average swiss male has a war-weapon in his house, so beware!) and guess what, we had allmost no problems with it.

I remember one case where someone went amok and stormed the tax control center, and a recent one which was as far as I know the first absolutely unmotivated kill in history with a swiss army rifle.

However, most of us learned to hate their weapon during service (darn drills!) and probably wouldn't touch it if not really neccessary... ;)
 
Swiss citizenship is almost impossible to achieve, isn't it?
 
Minimum prerequisite is owning a bank right?

No wonder ya'll got guns.
 
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