Em drives

Well, you need to identify an observable, and then demonstrate it.

Well, the intereferometer image is clearly an observable, right? So assuming that the result is not an artifact and is reproducible, are we justified in concluding that space warping occurs inside the device? If the answer to the preceding question is yes, have we provided any extraordinary evidence for the claim?

In other words: if an ordinary Michelson interferometer is sufficient to prove an extraordinary claim of space warping, then the requirement for extraordinary evidence is bogus.
 
In other words: if an ordinary Michelson interferometer is sufficient to prove an extraordinary claim of space warping, then the requirement for extraordinary evidence is bogus.

What if you simple power the device up in the hard vacuum test chamber, but don't point it into the beam path. Suddenly, you still measure the same result. Did it also warp space?

Or did it simple heat the device and the lack of cooling by the air produces simply a measurable distortion of the test rig?

That is why your evidence is far from extraordinary. There are ordinary criticisms possible on your experiment setup, that you need to address. If the ordinary error sources are elimated and you still get reproducable results - you have extraordinary evidence.

I for example, can't reproduce the results: The device is still mostly a blackbox. I can only tell that it consumes a lot of energy and turns very little of it into actual work - thus a lot of the energy must be turned into heat.

EDIT: Also, most NASA sources talk about it WILL be tested in a vacuum chamber to exclude heating of the air as source of the effect in the 2015 experiment... it has not yet been vacuum tested it seems.
 
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Sorry, but thats not how it works.

...said a programmer to an experimental scientist :lol:

First of all, how do you want to define what a unicorn is

Per Wikipedia, In European folklore, the unicorn is often depicted as a white horse-like or goat-like animal with a long horn and cloven hooves (sometimes a goat's beard). We of course assume that it's an actual animal, not a horse with a narwhal horn glued to its head.

Now: what evidence should I provide that I have one, and why is the evidence different than in case of a horse?

Next, assuming that unicorn is a biological species, breeding two unicorns should result in more unicorns. Or there is a reproducable way to produce unicorns?

If I said I have a horse, you would not ask me how that horse was bred, right? Why are you treating unicorns differently?

Next, your ownership of a horse can be established by known methods, so there is no need for scientific research to prove this statement.

And why would the same methods be insufficient to demonstrate my ownership of a unicorn?

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If the ordinary error sources are elimated and you still get reproducable results - you have extraordinary evidence.

But what is extraordinary about a test setup which has been correctly designed and debugged? If I used the same rig to repeat Michelson-Morley, would you claim that I have obtained extraordinary evidence of non-existence of aether?

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A talk about warp interferometers at NASA from last year... I did not know that the equipment was that advanced:



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I for example, can't reproduce the results: The device is still mostly a blackbox.

That's untrue, instructions how to make one have been posted by me upthread.

EDIT: Also, most NASA sources talk about it WILL be tested in a vacuum chamber to exclude heating of the air as source of the effect in the 2015 experiment... it has not yet been vacuum tested it seems.

Thrust has been tested in vacuum, interferometry not yet.
 
...said a programmer to an experimental scientist :lol:

Maybe that's the difference.

I can't claim "The feature is implemented as required, as long as you don't test it according to the specification.", for you, its maybe enough to say "We have discovered a new feature in the software, lets document it".

Also: About the horse analogy, we could of course also experimentally establish if this is really a horse according to all known attributes and aspects of a horse.

Would be just a bit crazy since we have reference horses available to test if this is really a horse and could use a simplified test based on the traits of the reference horses. But there is no reference unicorn.

And the instructions for reproducing the thruster are insufficient - similar descriptions exist also on Wikipedia, with similar large gaps to reproduce the exact experimental setup
 
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Well, the intereferometer image is clearly an observable, right? So assuming that the result is not an artifact and is reproducible, are we justified in concluding that space warping occurs inside the device? If the answer to the preceding question is yes, have we provided any extraordinary evidence for the claim?
That would be a proof, if we found that nothing was interfering.

I only know a little about interferometers, but it basically works by recombining a split laser beam and measuring the interference pattern to get difference in distance traveled.

But in this case, we are shooting a laser (made of EM waves) through a device that supposedly creates enough EM waves to create thrust/warp space. Is it possible for the interference to be occurring directly between the output of the device and the laser?

Now: what evidence should I provide that I have one, and why is the evidence different than in case of a horse?

If I said I have a horse, you would not ask me how that horse was bred, right? Why are you treating unicorns differently?
Because that's how species are defined? If the question was whether horse and unicorns exist (as species), then we should ask to see how the horse was bred.
 
Would be just a bit crazy since we have reference horses available to test if this is really a horse and could use a simplified test based on the traits of the reference horses. But there is no reference unicorn.

Excellent! So what do we do if there is no reference unicorn? We compile a list of expected characteristics of a unicorn, and design a list of tests to verify each of them. Per Wikipedia, we should check for (1) goat's cloven hooves and (2) beard, (3) a lion's tail, and (4) a slender, spiral horn on its forehead.

Testing (1)-(3) is straightforward and can be accomplished by looking at the animal. (4) is a critical characteristic and should be given more attention. In particular, we should rule out the most obvious alternative hypothesis, which is that we are dealing with a horse with a narwhal horn glued to its forehead. To rule out this hypothesis, we can use the following tests:

(4a) examine the horn visually
(4b) take tissue samples from the horn and its base, examine them under the microscope
(4c) take samples from the base of the horn and run chemical analysis for traces of glue
(4d) examine the horn using X-Ray / CT
(4e) examine the entire head using X-Ray / CT to discover how the horn connects with the skull
(4f) run single-blinded comparative DNA analysis of one sample of the horn and one sample of fur
(4g) run double-blinded, multiple-lab DNA analysis of multiple tissue samples

Now, here is a little secret of experiment design: you run the tests in order of increasing cost. This is because all results must be positive, so we can stop after the first negative and save money. For example, if at step (3) we discover that the creature has a donkey tail, not a lion's tail, then it is obviously not a unicorn, so examining the horn makes no sense. (That said, a typical scientist will probably run a few more tests out of curiosity as long as they still have budget.) The same goes for examining the horn, which we must do in detail. Again, if we find traces of glue in step (4b) or (4c), it makes no sense for us to go into the trouble of transporting the animal to the X-Ray machine.

What you are doing, is equivalent to criticizing the team after a positive DNA result in step (4f) that the trial was neither multi-site nor double blinded. Your criticism misses the point, because this is being done on purpose. If the price for a single DNA match is $1K, then step (4f) costs $1K, while step (4g) will cost on the order of $18K (3 labs, 3 pairs of samples + 3 dummies each). If you get a negative in step (4f), the you redo it just in case to eliminate lab error, if it comes out negative again, there's no point in shelling out $18K to complete (4g). As a rule of thumb, your cost will increase exponentially with each step. Looking at the animal is free; the X-Ray can be done at the local vet shop, DNA analytics costs real money.

(Do you now understand why the NASA people are testing gizmos in the air, instead of launching them to Earth-Sun L1 right away to eliminate all outside influence?)

On the other hand, if all tests (1) through (4g) come back positive then we must conclude that the animal is in fact a unicorn. And no, we are not obliged to explain how the unicorn came into being. That would take another research project -- but it makes no sense to fund it until we know that we have a unicorn an a first place!

But, observe that none of the steps (1) through (4g) is extraordinary: we are using established, ordinary research methods to investigate the claim. In fact, any extraordinary evidence, such as, a note saying Yes, it's an unicorn - God would be extremely suspect. This is one reason I believe that Sagan's phrase is harmful; he demands extraordinary evidence, but then any extraordinary evidence is by definition inadmissible. The second problem with his famous adage stems from the fact, that the word extraordinary is very ill-defined: whether the claim of having an unicorn is ordinary or not, depends on one's belief about unicorns. So the result is that one's preconceived notion about the existence of unicorn colors her view of evidence; and that's the very opposite of how science is supposed to work.

And it gets worse. Because the notion of extraordinary evidence leads one to incorrectly apply Occam's Razor. Let's say that I have positive results from all of the steps above. If the primary hypothesis is that we have a genuine unicorn, while the alternate hypothesis is that it's a fraud, this is the list of assumptions needed for each:

(Primary) Unicorns exists

(Alternate) Visual analysis wrong/fraud, chemical analysis wrong/fraud, X-Ray analysis wrong/fraud, DNA analysis wrong/fraud

So Occam's Razor suggests that we should side with having a genuine unicorn. But the extraordinary claims approach allows one to assign arbitrary weights to assumptions, thus concluding without any evidence that people researching unicorns must be either incompetents or frauds; the fact that the alleged conspiracy is implausibly large is ignored, because a preconceived belief (there are no unicorns!) outweights everything. In other words, the very notion of extraordinary evidence introduces circular, religious reasoning into science.

Another variant of this reasoning has been advanced by Sam Harris, who abuses Bayesian statistics to essentially claim that lack of prior discovery of unicorn-like creatures renders future discovery of unicorns improbable. While this sounds common sense, like all common sense assumptions is extremely stupid. Applying his reasoning consistently one should conclude that the discovery of HIV must have been a fraud, because there were no known prior viruses infecting human T-cells. But of course Harris, like Sagan, applies this reasoning only to things he believes do not exist.

Naomi Oreskes' Collapse of Western civilization details how this very mindset has crippled climate research, once climate deniers started claiming the need for extraordinary evidence and politicians followed suit.
 
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Naomi Oreskes' Collapse of Western civilization details how this very mindset has crippled climate research, once climate deniers started claiming the need for extraordinary evidence and politicians followed suit.

Politicians and climate deniers are neither


  • scientists nor
  • the end of the world as we know it
Seriously: Extraordinary is not the same as extra-scientific. You can be critical about the science behind global warming, and if you do it in a scientific way, its more than just an opinion of yours. (Actually, every such constructive criticism only helps the cause)

But if you require extra-scientific evidence for stopping science, you should be simply ignored. Not just for science, but also for politics. Politics without reason is just tyranny.

(But as you can see: Some emo-scientists are easily insulted by people not playing by their rules - and buy books about their hurt feelings)
 
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But if you require extra-scientific evidence for stopping science, you should be simply ignored.

It isn't about requiring extra-scientific evidence, it's about artificially raising the bar on disliked theories so the proof effectively becomes unaffordable. Then charge the scientists with wasting the taxpayer's money.

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Is it possible for the interference to be occurring directly between the output of the device and the laser?

In air -- possible. In vacuum, no.

At least according to our current understand of e-m radiation.
 
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It isn't about requiring extra-scientific evidence, it's about artificially raising the bar on disliked theories so the proof effectively becomes unaffordable. Then charge the scientists with wasting the taxpayer's money.

Unaffordable is a relative term. Also, even if we are in ITER or LHC regions of experimental confirmations of theories, we are still talking about tiny sums of money in politics. Even the worst case estimate for ITER's total cost is still smaller than a single month of US occupation of Iraq.

Also, unaffordable also applies to the opposite opinion. Just think of energy companies having to prove scientifically and by simple ordinary scientific evidence, that AGC does not exist. The scientific truth will always be more affordable than the lies - so I don't see your fear there.

The worst that you can do in such discussions is to let them delay you - actually the opposite is the best: Push things fast forward, even if every fast step results in higher costs for higher accuracy. Only in delaying you and wasting precious resources on political campaigns and politican discussions, evil politicians can win because they will beat you on their turf.

Force non-scientists into a scientific fight, and you can only win.
 
Unaffordable is a relative term.

You still miss the point. Extraordinary claims is a tool for killing ideas the establishment does not like. There's a bunch of topics which cannot be funded, because they challenge the common wisdom too much. I'm quoting the climate science, because there the controversy is visible. Elsewhere, it's just self-censorship to stay away from X.
 
You still miss the point. Extraordinary claims is a tool for killing ideas the establishment does not like. There's a bunch of topics which cannot be funded, because they challenge the common wisdom too much.

If the common wisdom is wrong, it does not cost you millions to prove it. Often it does not cost you more than paper and pencil (OK, and coffee)

But, I can not see any reasonable argumentation of you there. Extra-ordinary claims is nothing evil at all. We have had them quite often. Game changers. How was the old saying "New theories are not accepted, the proponents of the old theories simply die out".

Extra-ordinary theories are always based on extra-ordinary evidence. You can not invert it. You can not go and say "I have this weird idea, lets prove it." Thats not science. You are also not going to topple the old theories. That never happened. Newton standing on the shoulder of giants, remember? Old theories died out by extra-ordinary evidence proving them wrong, but this extra-ordinary evidence was never collected for violating the theories - it was collected while working with the old theories, detecting discrepancies.

Occams Razor should be known to you. Its exactly the same idea, that extraordinary claims require the extra-ordinary evidence, because if the same evidence available also supports a much simpler explanation, its very likely just that.

So, what are you afraid of? That scientific work is hard work? Sure not, if you are experimental scientist and not some ivory tower ghost. That all your hard work can be cancelled by a politician who can not even tell magnetism from electricity? This politician might no longer be in office in four years. Your scientific work lives forever.

Maybe you hope that all these claims are the truth. I don't. I don't even hope them to be a lie. I hope that accurate work is done, that will be still important enough to talk about in ten years. What does not kill a theory only makes it harder.
 
Is that how the thruster works? Unicorns?

Sorry, I couldn't help it :lol:

Only if the unicorn has a giant turtle to stand on and push against.

After, that, it's turtles all the way down.

iu
 
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Old theories died out by extra-ordinary evidence proving them wrong, but this extra-ordinary evidence was never collected for violating the theories - it was collected while working with the old theories, detecting discrepancies.

LOL. Have you head of Wöhler and Pasteur?

Occams Razor should be known to you. Its exactly the same idea, that extraordinary claims require the extra-ordinary evidence, because if the same evidence available also supports a much simpler explanation, its very likely just that.

Again, there is no such thing as extra-ordinary evidence. If an established method, such as DNA analysis under proper protocols and proper experimental design (multi-lab, double-blinded etc.), tells me that unicorn is in fact a unicorn with 95% probability, then I have a unicorn with 95% probability. Ergo, the probability that I don't have a unicorn is 5%. End of story. But the extraordinary evidence adage dictates that I must rather conclude a series of improbable lab errors, because, well, I'm not supposed to believe in unicorns. This is precisely the kind of bias that blinded testing is designed to avoid.
 
Of course, just like you can also cite Wegener there as supporting name for your claims. But answer the following question: Has Vitalism ever been a scientific theory?
 
But the extraordinary evidence adage dictates that I must rather conclude a series of improbable lab errors, because, well, I'm not supposed to believe in unicorns.
I just can't see the problem.
Because look closer at it, and back to the experiment that contradicts something well known, rather than finds something new (such as a unicorn).

then I have a unicorn with 95% probability. Ergo, the probability that I don't have a unicorn is 5%. End of story.
No, that ergo is plain wrong.

You would have 95% probability of the new theory being right on one hand, and 99.99999999% probability of the long established theory being right on the other hand.

These dozens of nines come from all the experiments done before, that shown the old theory to be correct.
You need to overcome that prior probability in order to prove your new theory, otherwise some experimental error would remain more likely.

Or, you can figure out how your observed result can be explained in an expansion on the existing theory (i.e. relativity over newtonian), in which case 95% might be enough.

New physics found VS known physics being wrong.

That's what the "extraordinary" part is all about, not that you are supposed to get some magical evidence or something.
 
Or, you can figure out how your observed result can be explained in an expansion on the existing theory (i.e. relativity over newtonian), in which case 95% might be enough.

But that's what the theorists are for. The job of the experimenter to demonstrate that an effect exists, in a repeatable and a robust manner.
If the experiment is done correctly, then it must not be discounted simply because it appears to disagree with an existing theory. So far, we have people claiming that the result must be wrong, without bothering to run the experiment themselves. That's the tail wagging the dog.
 
If the experiment is done correctly, then it must not be discounted simply because it appears to disagree with an existing theory. So far, we have people claiming that the result must be wrong, without bothering to run the experiment themselves. That's the tail wagging the dog.

But that's a very big if and somewhat apologetic. Actually, you say that a) experimental scientists are not disproving theories, because theories are not their business, but also b) if the experiment is done correctly, it is disproving all known theories.

So what?

For example: What if a similar result is created by simply using an waveguide? Without any thruster. Just by creating a strong electromagnetic field in a confined space, which should, according to general relatively, also warp space a bit. How much would the experiment have to differ from the prediction?
 
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How is unicorns related to EM drives?
 
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