Educational disaster still ongoing

[Belisarius]

From yesterday's Pittsburgh Post-Gazette:

"Three-fourths of students who took the ACT college entrance exam in 2006 lacked the knowledge and skills to succeed in entry-level, credit-bearing college courses in reading, math, social studies and science, even though they had taken a high school curriculum designed to prepare them for higher education, according to an ACT study."

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/08245/908603-298.stm?cmpid=MOSTEMAILEDBOX

Three-quarters? 75%?

From the comments of the younger English-speakers on this and other forums I had some idea that something was up, but I honestly had no idea it was this bad. I'm sure similar results would be obtained in the UK, Ireland, Australia, NZ, Canada and SA.

On behalf of the over-40s I'd like to apologize sincerely to the younger generation for having let them get this way. We let you down, kids. I suppose we got distracted with other stuff (though I can't remember what right now) and we decided it would be cool to let the educational establishment do some fun experiments with your lives.

After all, everyone enjoys watching children play, and it's boring and heavy to make them work hard to improve themselves. I guess none of us wanted to be the tough guy.

Maybe we can fix things in time for the next generation?

 

[GregBurch]

On behalf of the over-40s I'd like to apologize sincerely to the younger generation for having let them get this way. We let you down, kids. I suppose we got distracted with other stuff (though I can't remember what right now) and we decided it would be cool to let the educational establishment do some fun experiments with your lives.

After all, everyone enjoys watching children play, and it's boring and heavy to make them work hard to improve themselves. I guess none of us wanted to be the tough guy.

Maybe we can fix things in time for the next generation?

Well said!

 

[bujin]

It certainly doesn't help when you have idiots like this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7546975.stm

A university lecturer who claims that common spelling mistakes should be accepted as "variant spellings".

Yeah. Great idea. ill rite dis sentuns wiv sum veryunt spelins.

English is a hard enough language for foreigners to learn without having a whole load of different spellings for words because teachers are too lazy to teach kids how to spell properly, or kids are to lazy to learn!

I do worry about the state of education.

 

[GregBurch]

I think about this general subject a lot. I have to be careful about the fact that it's very natural at the stage of life I've reached to start having a "kids these days" attitude. I'm sure Og felt that way about those darned younger homo erectii who just didn't know the old lore about the best way to flake a stone axe.

But we know from history that cultures CAN collapse. It may be true that in every generation, the old farts shake their heads and bemoan the lack of polish in the younger generation -- BUT SOMETIMES THEY'RE RIGHT. (This is a variant of Burch's First Law: Every generation thinks it's special. Some of them are right.)

So, to quote that other bald guy with a goatee, what is to be done.? One of the things I keep asking myself is whether there are examples in history of cultures that have experienced periods of decline that have then been reinvigorated and reestablished good cultural standards. I think I know a couple of examples, but there aren't many, which doesn't give me much hope.

 

[Thunder Chicken]

I think the prime motivator for these poor numbers is, well... motivation. As much as you want to discuss the economy here, if you can consider taking the ACT you and your family are at least reasonably secure financially. A lot of the kids (I think) think such security is practically guaranteed, and so don't see the point of trying to get college degrees. Part of this is the shortsightedness of the adolescent brain, but part of it is from their observation of the world. There is just no necessity to spur their actions.

 

[Artlav]

Well, among the other anecdotal evidence, i've seen a 20/20 TV program called something like "stupidity in america", about USA education.

The main points noted there was that the education is a monopoly, so noone cares about actual kids, but only about ratings, going all the way down to teachers giving answers to the graduation tests to kids beforehand.

The same program also featured a comparison of international test results between european and american kids of the same grade, and USA ones was far behind.

Maybe someone from USA who seen the program can tell, whether it makes sense or not?

 

[tblaxland]

* RANT WARNING *

Maybe we can fix things in time for the next generation?

You can start by educating parents to give a s**t about their kids education. All too often I hear parents complaining that the educational system have let their kids down. Hello!?! When did education stop becoming a parents responsibility? IMHO, the education system is there to help parents in educating their children but it is not there to raise their kids for them. When it comes to my kids education, the buck stops with me. In practical terms, this means spending time with your kids and making education an integral part of their everyday lives. Huge improvements in education will come from a change in parents attitudes. It starts with us (that's a good thing because at least we can do something about it).

I suppose we got distracted with other stuff (though I can't remember what right now)

In this country at least the distraction was(is) aspirationalism.

 

[Quick_Nick]

The main points noted there was that the education is a monopoly, so noone cares about actual kids, but only about ratings, going all the way down to teachers giving answers to the graduation tests to kids beforehand.

Pretty much true. Schools are constantly concerned about the way they look and will do anything to *look* like a 'perfect' school, usually because of those panicked moms obsessed about 'little Johnny's' well-being and taking action to make the schools baby their kids. (I wish they'd get rid of those diet sodas at our school that our just worse for kids than the real thing )
I think you could probably call 'giving a review test that is nearly identical to the real thing, and then going over the right answers like 1 day or maybe the same day of the actual test' basically giving away the answers, which is what happens most of the time. (at least in Junior High is was like that and it looks like it will be like that in high school) Also, at least in Texas, students can take the TAKS test (the test Texas kids take each year before the year they take the SAT/ACT) three times I believe. Seeing as there are 4, maybe 5 choices for the multiple choice questions (which makes up usually 48/50 questions), if you take the test 3 times you should be able to pass (get something like 60% or higher correct) even if you guess at the answers. (I think you have to take extra classes if you don't pass the first time though)
I'm not familiar with the ACT test, but in 7th grade I took an SAT test (not for credit or anything, just a little program they had at school one week) and I got State Recognition, along with several other students. (I believe State Recognition means better than half of all students who took the test for real)

Regardless of all of this, I think the quote in the first post may be made to be misleading.

 

[Urwumpe]

The main points noted there was that the education is a monopoly, so noone cares about actual kids, but only about ratings, going all the way down to teachers giving answers to the graduation tests to kids beforehand.

Does not fit to US reality... the schools are pretty much in rivalry there. There is more monopoly in Germany, where elementary schools have assigned regions.

I also don't know anything about US students being worse than European ones - if there has to be a battle, it would be the battle for the biggest stupidity among them all.

After all, in the last PISA survey, both Europe (except Finland) and USA got beaten by Finland, Hong Kong and South Korea. And sure, lack of funding was not the reason.

http://www.pisa.oecd.org/dataoecd/15/13/39725224.pdf

 

[GregBurch]

And sure, lack of funding was not the reason.

Yeah -- it always makes my blood boil when I see such total focus on "school funding." Just about any school in the US today -- including the poorest -- is better equipped than just about any school 100 years ago. And, while teacher pay is not great, it NEVER HAS BEEN. A rational approach to a social or political or cultural problem is to control for variables and look at what has changed. Well, physical facilities and teacher pay are either better or no worse than they were when educational results were better. So a rational approach would be to ask what other significant factors have changed.

But this is by and large not what happens. The teachers unions keep the focus on teacher pay, and away from attempts to assess teacher quality. "Education theorists" are too cowardly or blinded by ideology to talk about the variables that might just be causal (erosion of traditional family structure, erosion of basic moral values in society at large, popular culture's "dumbing down" and glorification of ignorance and thuggery), and many of the people with the best of intentions focus on what they can measure -- test scores -- with the deplorable result of "teaching to the test" as our young friend above describes. In short, all of the most powerful interest groups and most influential constituencies are pushing in different -- and deeply flawed -- directions.

Do I sound hopeless? Is it any wonder I'm such a curmudgeon?

 

[Quick_Nick]

Does not fit to US reality... the schools are pretty much in rivalry there. There is more monopoly in Germany, where elementary schools have assigned regions.

I think he meant 'monopoly' in that you HAVE to go to whatever school they tell you to, even if you don't want to. And schools are really only in rivalry in sports and occasionally extracurricular academics. And... you don't think we have 'assigned regions'? (if I understand your definition of the words)

 

[Zatnikitelman]

Of all the United States, Georgia is probably the WORST POSSIBLE sstate-school system that exists! My mom has been teaching grades 6-8 for the past 7 years after an 11 year hiatus and part of the problem is the politics. The State tries to regulate every little thing the teacher can and can't do and when it's boiled all down, the teacher can't teach! You can only imagine the hoops the teachers have to go through. At her particular school, they aren't allowed to give a final grade below a 70, the principals might gently remind a student to stop throwing things and cussing at the teachers, and worse than that, their fancy schmancy new computer system that generates the kids schedules and does grades hasn't worked since before school started August 4! Whatever work the kids have done doesn't count worth a flying flip!
Our county however is where part of the problem lies. Can you guess what our superintendent got handed to him by the school system? A $29,000 USD gas-guzzling SUV for whatever use he deems! Not only that, but last year I was lucky enough to be able to work as part of an apprenticeship program in my school's IT department. It has to be the best thing that's ever happened since I started school so long ago. I found out from one of my friends there (he was a Junior last year so he's still got to stick it out there) that they stopped paying everyone for the apprenticeship program. Fortunately, everyone working in it was smart enough to quit and work elsewhere.
As you can tell I'm sort of pissed at the entire country's pathetic education system, particularly my state and county so...yeah.
[/huge-rant]

 

[GregBurch]

As you can tell I'm sort of pissed at the entire country's pathetic education system, particularly my state and county so...yeah.[/huge-rant]

Let me offer you words of encouragement. If you take personal responsibility for your education, you can do quite well. The key is to forget about how pathetic your school is and do it yourself. It's never been easier to get access to material to study -- you're just going to have to do it yourself.

Read.

Read.

Read.

Your brain will never be as ready to absorb huge amounts of information than it is when you're 15-25. Get a list of classic books and read them. In terms of education, NOTHING will stand you in better stead as you go on in life than that.

 

[ar81]

I was talking to a principal from a school in USA.
He says that kids suck badly in their grades in general terms.
He is very concerned about that.
I mentioned my Orbiter workshops for kids as a tool to motivate them and learn that what they learn at school is useful and enjoyable, and he was interested.

On a side note, he also told me things that I posted here and earned me a "bash countries" infraction. So I guess he was bashing his own country, USA. In the future One lesson learned, I will be careful about things people from other countries say that could be considered as "bashing" for people from that country if said by a foreigner.

Unfortunately I learned in the past that trusty friends can criticize you so you can improve, while enemies enjoy your mistakes in silence. It seems that I will have to take the "enemy" position of silence.

 

[Urwumpe]

Your brain will never be as ready to absorb huge amounts of information than it is when you're 15-25. Get a list of classic books and read them. In terms of education, NOTHING will stand you in better stead as you go on in life than that.

Let me add - and don't stop learning and don't stop in challenging your brain, my old teacher once said "your brain is a muscle, you need to train it", and she is not not completely wrong. you can still learn a lot of things, even when you are older, as long as your brain is kept in a good shape. and you can get a hard time, even when you are young, if you stop to learn for a longer while.


-----Posted Added-----

On a side note, he also told me things that I posted here and earned me a "bash countries" infraction.

Your problem will always be, that you can't stop at the facts, but continue bashing for the fiction. And if I would just post stuff, somebody anonymous or unknown said, without checking it against reality (which is sometimes disappointing), I make myself guilty of the same crimes he did.

That is the small difference between bashing and criticizing. For valid criticism, I have to know what I am criticizing, and be able to be revised, when I did not know the whole truth. Even if I personally might hate it. For bashing, I don't need to care for the truth. And if somebody shows my argumentation is wrong, I can always go for circular arguments, to continue bashing.

I am no US-citizen, so I have to be careful with what I criticize on the USA. I can do it for small details, but I would have to expect to be wrong, when I don't see the big whole correctly. I can criticize the US view on European history, because it is not only something, the USA have only very distant relations to (though they managed to always come late for a good war), and often suffer from a very US centric history subject in school - including teachers who often only repeat stuff, they learned wrong themselves.

The further I try to reach outside my real existing knowledge (Not my imaginary complete knowledge), the more I risk to be corrected... and the smaller is the gap between criticism and bashing.

 

[movieman]

You can start by educating parents to give a s**t about their kids education. All too often I hear parents complaining that the educational system have let their kids down. Hello!?! When did education stop becoming a parents responsibility?

When the state started stealing their money to pay for bad schools. What are parents meant to do if the schools are worthless? They can't stop funding them, because the money is stolen from them by the state. They usually can't afford to send them to a private school that's actually competent, because the state has stolen so much money from them that they can't then afford to pay a second set of school fees. They can't even bring up their own kids at home, because both of them have to go out to work to pay their taxes and living costs.

Schools are broken across the West, primarily because they've been taken over by hippy boomer 'self-esteem' nonsense, where feeling good about yourself is considered far more important than competence. British schools are absolutely appalling these days; last year a couple of university lecturers were complaining that they had degree students who were essentially illiterate, but the university still forced the lecturers to pass those students anyway.

Unfortunately this situation has taken decades to reach this point and will take decades to fix.

 

[Cobalt]

Competition would help increase the quality of education in the US. If you'd let parents decide where to send their kids, public or private, (Say, just for example, a family is issued a check for each child, and it can go to tuition and supplies wherever they choose) it would force the schools to perform if they wanted the money that would come with another student.

A local radio show host mentioned in a book where a listener had emailed in a comment from a report card that read: "Johnny are learning to read good. He is getting along well with his pears." Good to know Johnny are coexisting with the fruit he has.

And here's an old, but particularly telling quote about teachers unions:

"When school children start paying union dues, that's when I'll start representing the interests of school children." Albert Shanker, former president, American Federation of Teachers (1985)

 

[movieman]

Competition would help increase the quality of education in the US. If you'd let parents decide where to send their kids, public or private, (Say, just for example, a family is issued a check for each child, and it can go to tuition and supplies wherever they choose) it would force the schools to perform if they wanted the money that would come with another student.

Exactly: while it's far from an ideal solution to school problems, giving parents vouchers to spend at the school of their choice is certainly a quick fix to the worst issues.

Which is precisely why bad teachers oppose them so strongly.

 

[Cobalt]

Exactly: while it's far from an ideal solution to school problems, giving parents vouchers to spend at the school of their choice is certainly a quick fix to the worst issues.

Which is precisely why bad teachers oppose them so strongly.

Yeah, it wouldn't be a cure-all, but it would be a huge step in the right direction.

I'll have to look it up, but I think Florida came up with a system where the worst performing schools would either lose funding or be shut down (not quite sure at the moment) and it got killed by teachers unions. (Will look up later)

 

[ar81]

How about students who fail?
Will they also be shut down in their lives?
In the end you want students to learn.
But if they have poverty at home, a disfunctional family, or lack of motivation, no teacher or school can fix that, specially because of the size of groups.
In the end you would shut down schools in poor neighborhoods.