Request Devs Wanted for Real Life Moon Mission

[joertexas]

I'm part of a volunteer grassroots effort to fly an unmanned prospecting mission to the lunar north pole. I am putting together a video to publicize the mission, but I'm not a programmer or a graphics artist. I'd like to develop a improved Orbiter scenario (over my own version) to illustrate the mission from launch to ground exploration. The mission (tentatively named Moon Shot) details can be found on the forum here:

www.permanent.com

This mission is the first step to commercial development in cislunar space. Anyone who'd like to help is invited to join the forum, or you can message me privately for more details.

Thanks!

JR

 

[Urwumpe]

The commercial aspect is a bit irritating. There you should deliver some clarifications. If you mean non-commercial lobbying for commercial space exploration, that could be in the interests of some people here.

But I personally think that commercial lobbying should be commercially paid. I am a capitalist, don't blame me, blame the system.

 

[joertexas]

The commercial aspect is a bit irritating. There you should deliver some clarifications. If you mean non-commercial lobbying for commercial space exploration, that could be in the interests of some people here.

But I personally think that commercial lobbying should be commercially paid. I am a capitalist, don't blame me, blame the system.

I would agree, up to the point where I realized everyone was sitting back waiting for someone else to do it. NASA won't do it, the aerospace industry won't do it, and the universities won't do it - each for their own reasons. PERMANENT is a registered non-profit organization dedicated to opening cislunar space, but the Moon Shot project itself will probably be commercial.

We are ordinary people who are reaching out for the promise of living and working in space. Things like solar power satellites, space habitats and manned interplanetary exploration, to name a few, are dependent on accessing resources from the moon and the asteroids. Will we ever be paid for our efforts? I don't know, but that won't stop us from advancing the idea anyway.

JR

 

[insanity]

I would agree, up to the point where I realized everyone was sitting back waiting for someone else to do it. NASA won't do it, the aerospace industry won't do it, and the universities won't do it - each for their own reasons. PERMANENT is a registered non-profit organization dedicated to opening cislunar space, but the Moon Shot project itself will probably be commercial.

We are ordinary people who are reaching out for the promise of living and working in space. Things like solar power satellites, space habitats and manned interplanetary exploration, to name a few, are dependent on accessing resources from the moon and the asteroids. Will we ever be paid for our efforts? I don't know, but that won't stop us from advancing the idea anyway.

JR

Asking people to donate their time and expertise to a project which may or may not be profitable and which they may or may not ever see any return is asking a lot. For a project of this scale to be successful, you will have to raise LOTS of money, enough money that you could offer the would-be dev some sort of living wage.

At the end of the day, the terrestrial problems of eating and taking care of our families outweigh lofty but risky dreams of space travel.

Lastly, and this is just an aside, if you want people to take your project seriously, get a better webpage.

 

[garyw]

I have to agree with insanity here. There are a lot of details of your mission missing. For an addon in orbiter you have velcro and a bunch of sc3/multistage parts but orbiter is NOT a real life mission simulator.

To do this in real requires a lot more than orbiter.

 

[mojoey]

Asking people to donate their time and expertise to a project which may or may not be profitable and which they may or may not ever see any return is asking a lot. For a project of this scale to be successful, you will have to raise LOTS of money, enough money that you could offer the would-be dev some sort of living wage.

At the end of the day, the terrestrial problems of eating and taking care of our families outweigh lofty but risky dreams of space travel.

Lastly, and this is just an aside, if you want people to take your project seriously, get a better webpage.

i think my eyes melted...

 

[Urwumpe]

Will we ever be paid for our efforts? I don't know, but that won't stop us from advancing the idea anyway.

Since you dream about opening a multibillion USD market one day, I would try to be part of those who get rich. After all, even if it is just free time, it is money that goes into the project - free time that you use for such ventures is free time that you don't use for recreating for your paid job.

Also, your homepage is too little about the solutions than about promising the blue from the sky. Why don't you try to go a bit more to the think tank region and maybe try to offer real solutions for real problems.

 

[george7378]

I wondered whether or not this was serious when I saw the opening line on the website:

"It is a race against time, before a biotechnology supervirus makes mankind
extinct"

That's not really the kind of motive that convinces people to work with you.

 

[Hielor]

The website looks like something straight out of the 90s, and as far as I can tell from a quick read through it looks like it's all geared toward selling this dude's book.

 

[garyw]

The website looks like something straight out of the 90s

Well, look at the copyright dates:

Text by Mark Prado, Copyright © 1983-2002, All Rights Reserved.

So, it's not been updated in at least 10 years. Not exactly encouragement that it's a serious site.

 

[T.Neo]

There is a 2009 update, and the forums seem to be fairly recently active.

"It is a race against time, before a biotechnology supervirus makes mankind
extinct"

That's not really the kind of motive that convinces people to work with you.

"or nanotechnology destroys Earth's biosphere, suddenly"... even though the danger of a grey-goo scenario has since been determined to be less likely than originally thought and Drexler has made somewhat of an effort to dispel the concern. I agree with you though.

 

[Urwumpe]

Where is the Moai rampagne?

 

[RacerX]

I need more convincing. I am not trying to be a negative or disrespectful here, but the website and the reason for doing this sounds to me like more of a conspiracy theory type thing then a actual believable undertaking.....I'll pass on this one!

 

[Hadron]

The website looks like something straight out of the 90s, and as far as I can tell from a quick read through it looks like it's all geared toward selling this dude's book.

This... a thousand times this. So many red flags about the site. The site advertises a book but also tries to solicit donations. If I had to guess the site and organization are run by well-intentioned but naive individuals, or else scam artists, leaving room for some kind of mix between the two.

'PERMANENT is now a tax-deductible, nonprofit corporation, as of May 2009, and thus contributions are tax deductible. We are not yet a 501c3 but we may apply for 501c3 status.'

I'm confused. I'm not American but my understanding is that 501c3 status is the tax deductible state they claim they are a part of.

 

[joertexas]

For the record, the PERMANENT website isn't mine - it belongs to a friend who has invested a lot of time, money, and effort into putting forth the idea that we should start commercial ventures in space. Yes, it's old, and yes, it needs to be updated, and no, he has no interest in scamming anyone - this will be hard enough as it is without that nonsense.

My own project, the one I asked for help with, is to make a video about the mission (not a mission simulation), and some still pics that my friends and I could then use for a seperate website about the Moon Shot mission.

I've been trying to learn how to use Orbiter on my own, but my skills don't run to programming. I've put in hundreds of hours of research to come up with the vehicle designs, and Orbiter seemed to be the best avenue to get some decent footage to generate some buzz. I've managed to put together a scenario, but it won't cut it as a video.

Please contact me privately if you want to help. You will be asked to join the forum and talk with everyone involved before doing anything.

If you want to nitpick or show how smart you are, please don't. It wastes your time and mine; I have precious little of it as it stands, and I refuse to waste it in pointless debates.

Thank you.

JR

 

[Izack]

Somehow it seems unlikely that 'hundreds of hours of research' would come down to a short post and a single link to an ancient website...

Not intending to bash, but I don't think these allusions to clandestine messages and chats with members will impress many of us enough to join in. Sounds an awful lot like wasting time... :2cents:

 

[insanity]

If you want to nitpick or show how smart you are, please don't. It wastes your time and mine; I have precious little of it as it stands, and I refuse to waste it in pointless debates.

Thank you.

JR

You had enough time to ask us to give you our time for free, so I might give you one more piece of advice. Don't shun people who ask honest questions and want honest answers. If you really want to do something big someday, accept constructive criticism. Science is a dialectic process.

Also, shrugging off people who you just asked to do free work for you won't help.

 

[Hielor]

If you're looking to make a video instead of a mission simulation, Orbiter is the wrong software to do it in. It would likely be easier to make and render a video using free or commercial 3d modelling tools, and the end result would be much higher quality, as well. If you're just making a "get people excited" video, you don't need any kind of physics simulation at all--and that's all Orbiter is, is a physics simulation.

 

[joertexas]

You had enough time to ask us to give you our time for free, so I might give you one more piece of advice. Don't shun people who ask honest questions and want honest answers. If you really want to do something big someday, accept constructive criticism. Science is a dialectic process.

Also, shrugging off people who you just asked to do free work for you won't help.

I'm not asking anyone to do anything for *me*. I'm asking for someone to consider what this project could mean for us all, and, if it's still worthwhile in their eyes, join in and help. If you don't see any value in it, and you don't want to actually talk with me to learn the details, then, for pity's sake, please ignore this thread and get on with your life.

I have to admit - I never expected such a vitriolic response from people who supposedly have an interest in space travel, especially after my private correspondence with certain individuals connected with Orbiter had been so supportive. As a forum moderator, I would never tolerate such behavior toward another member - much less join in. I will guarantee that anyone who chooses to attend our forum will be treated with dignity and respect.

JR

---------- Post added at 07:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:51 PM ----------

If you're looking to make a video instead of a mission simulation, Orbiter is the wrong software to do it in. It would likely be easier to make and render a video using free or commercial 3d modelling tools, and the end result would be much higher quality, as well. If you're just making a "get people excited" video, you don't need any kind of physics simulation at all--and that's all Orbiter is, is a physics simulation.

We're looking at game creation software as an alternate method to generate the video we need. The attraction of Orbiter is that a lot of the modeling is done, and it just looks right - because it is reasonably accurate. Everything moves like it should, in the correct relationships.

I've been using Orbiter as a low grade simulator to get an idea of how the real mission will operate, and modeling the ground operations would help a great deal to point out any glaring flaws in the mission profile. I've learned a lot using the crude models I've flown in Orbiter, but they don't make a very impressive video.


JR

 

[garyw]

If you want to nitpick or show how smart you are, please don't. It wastes your time and mine; I have precious little of it as it stands, and I refuse to waste it in pointless debates.

I don't see anyone nitpicking. Most of us have very little time to spare ourselves and believe me, I would love to get involved with a serious commerical space project but if all you do is complain that people are smart and wasting your time then I have to conclude that my limited time resources would be better spent elsewhere. I also wonder how you'll handle public outreach

I'm not asking anyone to do anything for *me*. I'm asking for someone to consider what this project could mean for us all, and, if it's still worthwhile in their eyes, join in and help.

Without answering questions people have put forth here the only conclusion I can make is that this project is a waste of time. Harsh? Yes but others have tried the same approach and vanished. There are companies that have had commerical sponsorship from NASA and they have vanished - Rocketplane Kistler comes to mind. Why is yours any different?

If you don't see any value in it, and you don't want to actually talk with me to learn the details, then, for pity's sake, please ignore this thread and get on with your life.

Oh but I'd love to learn the details. You won't share them. I have to conclude that you don't have answers or even guesses for some aspects. If this is how you respond to legitimate questions then you will get harsh resposnes from the forum membership.

I have to admit - I never expected such a vitriolic response from people who supposedly have an interest in space travel, especially after my private correspondence with certain individuals connected with Orbiter had been so supportive. As a forum moderator, I would never tolerate such behavior toward another member - much less join in. I will guarantee that anyone who chooses to attend our forum will be treated with dignity and respect.

You have been treated with dignity and respect. Most people here are such space geeks that they understand the difficulities with what you are doing. These people, annoyingly so sometimes, will ask many questions. IF their questions aren't causing you to stop and think and instead are causing you to dismiss them as whiners then you clearly have no concept of just what it is you are trying to do.

As for the forum moderators not tolerating such behaviour we have a report post button attached to every post. You are free to report it but as you can see from my own post, I too have very grave concerns about this project.

The thing is, you are not the first to come here and propose this idea. You won't be the last. We are skeptical - if that is an issue then spend a little bit of time answering peoples questions. If you do I'll guarentee you'll get a much more positive outcome from people.

Thank you.