Discussion Default bases surface tiles

[4throck]

I was running the default Orbiter bases (from the default installation) through Orbiter Base Maker and noticed that most of them aren't even correctly located.

My goal was to provide a level1 + level 4 tile for each one, and place pads at the correct locations.

Of course, there are many base add-on, so I'm not suggesting to replace those. I'm thinking along the lines of a small upgrade that would make a visit to those places worthwhile, and also be accurate enough to serve as a starting point for a dedicated add-on.

Is it worth doing?
Should I add runways besides pads?
What criteria to determine the base coordinates? The largest base pad?
What bases to leave out of the update ? Canaveral and Baikonur?

Should this project start based on Orbiter Wiki? Perhaps we can collect the information there. Anyone interested in helping to gather the information ?

 

[PhantomCruiser]

Sounds like a worthwhile project. Particularly the shuttle abort sites. I'd like to sugest Tinker AFB also, I don't think I ever took a military logistics flight without stopping at Tinker.

Can't be much help though, there's a lot going on at the 'cruiser household (nothing bad, just lots of it).

 

[4throck]

The default bases are:

Alcantara
Al_Anbar
Baikonur
Barent_Sea
Canaveral
China_Lake
Doberai
Edwards
Gran_canaria
Habana
Hammaguira
Inyokern
Jingyu
Jiuquan
Kagoshima
Kapustin_Yar
Kourou.cfg
Matagorda
Musudan
Overberg
Palmachim
Peenemunde
Plesetsk
Salto_di_Quirra
San_Marco
Sriharikota
Svobodniy
Taiyuan
Tanegashima
Vandenberg
Wallops_Island
White_Sands
Woomera
Wuzhai
Xichang

Some places are really obscure and I guess that the criteria for inclusion was historical.

It's outdated but that a matter for other projects / discussion. I'd rather not add any bases to that list to keep it matched with the default Orbiter installation.
But all discussion and suggestions are welcome and might originate other projects.

(I've added this information to our Wiki: http://www.orbiterwiki.org/wiki/Surface_bases )

 

[mbartley]

The default Inyokern base, in real life, is an unremarkable (as far as I know) general aviation airport in California. I'd recommend replacing it with Mojave airport, 73 km to the southwest, instead. Spaceship One flew from there and Spaceship Two is supposed to.

 

[4throck]

It seems to have some historical significance:
http://www.militarymuseum.org/NAFInyokern.html

---------- Post added at 23:07 ---------- Previous post was at 19:55 ----------

I tried my hand at a few bases and this is what you can expect:

Inyokern

Kagoshima

Matagorda

Matagorda is interesting because it corresponds to two airfields. Both are deactivated now.
I represented the runways from an historical point of view, because this site was considered for NASA along with Cape Canaveral!

 

[4throck]

Just to let you know that I'm making progress.

The project has split into two parts:

* Research - all the information is being collected on Orbiter Wiky /http://www.orbiterwiki.org/wiki/Category:Surface_bases). Things like runway lengths, ILS, lights, frequencies, pad coordinates are now listed. I've also mentioned the associated rockets and related add-ons, were relevant.

* Base modeling - nothing new here. I'm adding level1 + level 4 general tile coverage for the areas immediately around pads and runways. I'm placing pads at the correct coordinates, ordered by relevance/age. For example, the V2 scenarios at Peenemunde will now show the roket at the correct place ("pad 1"), with no need for any changes to the add-on.



Some questions to all:

- How to do places that have changed over time? There's a time parameter for the base objects. Should I consider using it ?

- Should I only consider the bases as they are today? This means that some will have nothing more that the tiles...

- Should I add the default objects (blocks, hangars, etc) to make them more interesting?


Bare in mind that this is intended as a general enhancement of Orbiter's environment, not as a dedicated base add-on.

 

[PhantomCruiser]

For question 3 - Perhaps a few hangars and associated buildings. A generic control tower made from tanks maybe? This is a project that you could easily spend "way" too much time on if you went too far into detail.

 

[garyw]

Matagorda is used in the Ben Bova books as a space base so whilst it's good to keep accuracy I do kinda like the idea of the sci-fi/futuristic element so it would be nice to see some of these bases a little more spruced up with hangars, pads, etc

 

[Izack]

Matagorda is used in the Ben Bova books as a space base so whilst it's good to keep accuracy I do kinda like the idea of the sci-fi/futuristic element so it would be nice to see some of these bases a little more spruced up with hangars, pads, etc

I don't see why not - Orbiter distribution includes such things at KSC (nevermind the Moon and Mars bases.)

 

[C3PO]

- How to do places that have changed over time? There's a time parameter for the base objects. Should I consider using it ?

I think that would be an excellent idea! :thumbup:
I'd suggest that you only use start dates, unless you are including more than one version in this addon.

 

[paddy2]

When I first came to Obiter, I was thinking what have I done wrong when visiting some of the "stock" bases. Even when I first played with Orbiter Base Maker and looked at them I still thought it was me. I think it would be a fine project to add a bit more detail to these bases.

Having said that, now I have got a bit more into OBM I would maybe not use your bases. Please do not take this as in anyway a put down. What I mean is that AFTER having gone through a learning process, I can knock out a modification the the plain bases for myself should I need them, as so can very many that would read this.

For anyone coming new to Orbiter, this project would take on a whole different meaning and be a great help I would say. I would also suggest that it could well become one the "the" early add-ons to be downloaded by new Orbiters. Each base would not need to be a huge file and indeed they may well be other more detailed choices but a single download of a dozen bases would of been joy and most welcome in my early days.

I am not underestimating the work, as i have been playing / changing / rewriting my own base for a while now. It may never be bundled into a new release of Orbiter but I for one think it would be a welcome add on

Plus if you want to do it .....go for it. You may ask for help but you don't need permission!!!

 

[4throck]

Thanks all for the ideas.

Yes, my goal is to do a "n00b" add-on that doesn't bog down Orbiter loading and can live with "dedicated" base add-ons on top of it.

As you all know, I can perfectly create a fully 3D meshed base! That's not the point .
I understand that something so limited might not appeal to some users here. I don't see anything wrong with that, it's a perfectly valid opinion. Specially in the case of Canaveral or Baikonur where you have great "standard" add-ons.
So I guess I'll leave those two out.

I'll comment on the historical / futuristic / retro issues when I've reached a decision. I'm leaning more to retro...
Taking Matagorda as an example, I can use historical photos to place some hangars... and we can suspend disbelief and pretend that they are still there.

---------- Post added at 23:13 ---------- Previous post was at 19:58 ----------

Ok, Matagorda now looks something like this:

The blocks where positioned by historical maps, so tanks and the tower are on the right places (height not correct yet). This is the minimal level of detail I expect from a default base, so I'll go with this whenever I have the data available.

Here's a view from higher up, showing the "twin" airfields:

I'm using a V2 as a stand-in for a classic Moon Rocket to give a retro look...

 

[boogabooga]

If this is being targeted to beginners, I recommend adding airfields to as many as practical. I think most Orbinauts get their start with the Deltaglider, and more airfields would come in handy for launch and landing.

 

[4throck]

Yes. :thumbup:
Most of the surface bases are nowadays just airports/airfields. On those cases I'm placing a single pad at a suitable aircraft stand area. The example above features two airfield with a total of 8 runways and a pad in each (placed in the aircraft stand area).
So you can simply select the base from the scenery editor, have the DG appear on the pad and taxi to the runway... and then practice landings!

I'll probably release this in several versions with updates.
Otherwise it will take too much time to get all the bases done, and there's no point in not sharing what I have already done.

 

[Ripley]

I'm a bit late on this, but I just wanted to say I like the idea of this add-on!

 

[vchamp]

Good idea, 4throck! I remember my disappointment when i saw just a few pads at many default bases, and there names look like a junk in the bases list which is bulky and littery because of this. Will be great to visit all these renovated bases, you do them well! It's cool that you use smooth tile edges. Keep up good work :thumbup:

 

[4throck]

I'm using the tiles from OBM and smoothing the edges with alpha channel.

But I might need to redo it because I noticed that OBM is again downloading images from GoogleMaps (previously it used Landsat). You can actually read Google watermarked on the ocean...

This is no problem, because I can replace the proprietary images with Landsat imagery or astronaut photos taken from the ISS. But means more time / less work done.

Most people don't care about copyrights but I do, since I work professionally with maps, 3D models and Google products.

 

[martins]

I tried my hand at a few bases and this is what you can expect:

These look very nice! If by any chance you ever consider donating some of these to the orbiter base distribution, I'd be very happy to include them. The non-existance of the bases in the default installation has always been a pain.

(possibly lower-resolution versions, to keep the size of the base package manageable).

 

[4throck]

Yes, I welcome the idea of donating
Count on it! Both the actual base files and the small description that I'm gathering on the Wiki (with some participation from others ).

I'm busy changing the Google tiles by Landsat ones. Lower resolution but much better integration with the Earth textures and smaller file sizes. And of course, those are the only ones we can actually distribute...

I hope to have a few bases finished on the next days, but as always no promises! It will be done when it's done!

 

[Spacethingy]

Nice tile fading with the background earth texture. This'll be very cool being able to land pretty much anywhere and finding a nice-looking base waiting!