News China Invited to Join ISS

[AirSimming]

if I was a Chinese cosmonaut

A taikonaut

 

[SiberianTiger]

A taikonaut

A yǔhángyuán or a hángtiānyuán

 

[Orbinaut Pete]

Roscosmos PAO: "Roscosmos Head is not Against China Becoming an ISS Partner".

China would not be in position to become one of the partners in the International Space Station program, Roscosmos Head Anatoly Perminov stated, questioned by news media during the International Astronautical Congress in Prague.
"I’m not against China’s involvement in the ISS program a partner", Roscosmos Head stated. "However in the view of their economical evolution, and their ambitions in the human space exploration, I don’t think that China would do it".
Possible participation of the other partners in the ISS – India or China - was also discussed during the Heads of the Agencies plenary at the Congress. NASA’s Head Charles Bolden expressed his opinion by explaining that the ISS partnership was established a long time ago, so involving one more partner today would be extremely difficult. On the other hand, Bolden said, any party which provides components or products for the station can be involved in the project through an ISS partner.
To remind, 5 main parties of the ISS comprise space agencies of Russia, the USA, Europe, Japan and Canada.
Currently, only two of them posses human space vehicles to bring the crews to and from the ISS. However after shuttle retirement in 2011, Russia remains the only partner to carry on crew rotations with their Soyuzes.
"Russian party have done everything to maintain 4 human space launches by Soyuzes per year. Last year we extended ISS crew to 6, and the crew rotations are supported by our vehicles", Perminov commented the situation.
He also added that Soyuz production line currently undergoes deep modification:
"This is not only Roscosmos’ concern, this goes to the state level. Chairman of the Russian Government Vladimir Putin visited RSC-Energia recently to revise the modification of the line himself. In other words, Russia’s approach to meeting its international obligations is serious; the partners shall not doubt it".
Roscosmos Head also noted that advanced human space vehicle is under development in Russia.
"RSC-Energia commenced draft design of the advanced crew vehicle to be commissioned in 2015, and flown in 2018", Perminov concluded.

 

[N_Molson]

Very good news to see that RSC-Energia & the Russian governement are taking things seriously ! :thumbup:

 

[Orbinaut Pete]

Roscosmos PAO: "Roscosmos to Discuss Future Joint Space Initiatives with China".

There was no official proposal from the Chinese party on their partnership in the International Space Station program, Head of Roscosmos Human Spaceflight Directorate, ISS Program Manager Alexey Krasnov stated during the press conference devoted to the 10th anniversary of the International Space Station’s human space mission today, on Nov. 1.
The conference hosted by Bauman Moscow State Technical University was also attended by Roscosmos Press Secretary Alexander Vorobiev, ISS-1 crew member, GCTC Chief Sergey Krikalev, ISS RS Flight Director Vladimir Soloviev, cosmonaut Oleg Kotov, NASA Representative in Russia Patric Buzzard, NASA Human Spaceflight Program Director in Russia Joel Montalbano Moscow office.
Answering the question about possible Chinese participation in the ISS program, Krasnov said that China was planning to develop their own human spaceflight program, in line with their national priorities.
“While I an answering the question, Roscosmos delegation led by the Head Anatoly Perminov, is over there in China, holding negotiations on future joint space initiatives. However human space missions are not in the agenda”, Krasnov said.

 

[JonnyBGoode]

Its bloody damn our business. Those Israelis and Hamas try to have a war there and they don't even invite us Germans. Isn't that stupid. Everybody knows without us, you just have a small unimportant regional conflict, without any glory.

See Urwumpe do the quickstep, next time on Dancing with Godwin! :lol:

I don't think China is anywhere near ready to join the ISS. They're in their Mercury phase still. I'd actually anticipate private concerns getting there faster. And I think dangling a carrot from the ISS would be a great way to kickstart privatization of space.

 

[Columbia42]

I don't think China is anywhere near ready to join the ISS. They're in their Mercury phase still. I'd actually anticipate private concerns getting there faster. And I think dangling a carrot from the ISS would be a great way to kickstart privatization of space.

I disagree. China has accomlished in 3 spaceflights what took the U.S. and Russia upwards of 10 flights to complete. They have a spaceship in many ways comparable to the Soyuz (minus docking capabilities) and will therefore, in a year or two, be in a better position than the U.S. which will no longer have any means of contributing to the ISS.

Politics, however, is another matter entirely. Although I am against the politicizing of space, China's political irresponsiblilty can't be overlooked when one is considering allowing them to join a collaborative international effort.

 

[Urwumpe]

See Urwumpe do the quickstep, next time on Dancing with Godwin! :lol:

Just try to name a few good wars in history without German (or holy roman empire) participation... Suddenly you are left with such B-wars like Vietnam or Korea. Believe me, it isn't easy and it must not even be a great patriotic flounder...I mean war. Which is also just one example of many wars with important German contributions to the successful entertainment of historians.

(Yes, that is sarcasm, but actually directed at the great history of my country)

I don't think China is anywhere near ready to join the ISS. They're in their Mercury phase still. I'd actually anticipate private concerns getting there faster. And I think dangling a carrot from the ISS would be a great way to kickstart privatization of space.

They jumped past Mercury and went directly to Gemini. And yes, the ISS would be the second best option for sparking a market.

---------- Post added at 11:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:01 PM ----------

I disagree. China has accomlished in 3 spaceflights what took the U.S. and Russia upwards of 10 flights to complete.

Actually, it just took the Soviet Union eight flights to get to the state that China reached with three - 50 years later and based on the experience of many space-faring countries. Or do you think Chinese engineers are unable to read existing literature on spaceflight?

Also, what should never be forgotten, China needed twice as much time from first manned spaceflight to first EVA as the USSR needed back then.

That China has all the advantages of a later generation in spaceflight (the big unknown problems are already known now), is not having much effect.

 

[Ghostrider]

Just try to name a few good wars in history without German (or holy roman empire) participation...

Now, now: everybody knows that wars just do not feel right ever since they forbade Swiss mercenaries from participating. But remember that when the Vatican conquers Europe and the Pope marches into Brussels to the Darth Vader Theme.:lol:

 

[Urwumpe]

Now, now: everybody knows that wars just do not feel right ever since they forbade Swiss mercenaries from participating. But remember that when the Vatican conquers Europe and the Pope marches into Brussels to the Darth Vader Theme.:lol:

Are you sure that "Palpatine" is not even closer to the reality.

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_euro_coins"]Vatican euro coins - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

 

[JonnyBGoode]

And yes, the ISS would be the second best option for sparking a market

What would be the first best option?

 

[Urwumpe]

What would be the first best option?

A private space station complex independent of the ISS, even if build with government aid. But it seems like this aid is not needed anymore.

 

[Columbia42]

Actually, it just took the Soviet Union eight flights to get to the state that China reached with three - 50 years later and based on the experience of many space-faring countries. Or do you think Chinese engineers are unable to read existing literature on spaceflight?

Also, what should never be forgotten, China needed twice as much time from first manned spaceflight to first EVA as the USSR needed back then.

That China has all the advantages of a later generation in spaceflight (the big unknown problems are already known now), is not having much effect.

I agree that the Chinese have many advantages at the outset of their space program. I was definitely overstating their accomplishments in my earlier post. The fact that the Chinese have the benefit of all previous experience in manned spaceflight does not mean they have inferior technology, however. Despite all of the help they've gotten, a country with a ship comparable to the Soyuz would still be an asset to the ISS (as soon as they develop docking capability, that is).

 

[Urwumpe]

I agree that the Chinese have many advantages at the outset of their space program. I was definitely overstating their accomplishments in my earlier post. The fact that the Chinese have the benefit of all previous experience in manned spaceflight does not mean they have inferior technology, however. Despite all of the help they've gotten, a country with a ship comparable to the Soyuz would still be an asset to the ISS (as soon as they develop docking capability, that is).

But they do have inferior technology - even if it does not look like it. Chinas high tech industry is practically not existing - the important research is done outside China, only production facilities exist. There are few light house projects, that seem to imply a technological ability, but in reality, China lacks the width in the industry for its own sustained technological innovations. If nobody did invent it outside China, it can't be developed inside China. The Chinese can copy designs and use existing research, but every time, China is forced to fill gaps, things get slow and unreliable.

That is not a cultural problem, or related to communism, but actually caused by strong gaps in the education system of China - few good engineers have to deal with many badly educated workers who need a long experience in work for learning just the basics. Also workers, who are not permitted to show initiative. Initiative is limited to the top echolons - the place where most initiative is wasted since the top managers and top engineers lack the ability to do the small jobs or understand them.

Which is why China maybe now has the fastest train by application of brute force, but needs more resources for keeping this train running. For example because of higher weight or less effective motors.

Same in spaceflight. There is no Chinese Korolev who solves problems.

 

[Columbia42]

But they do have inferior technology - even if it does not look like it. Chinas high tech industry is practically not existing - the important research is done outside China, only production facilities exist. There are few light house projects, that seem to imply a technological ability, but in reality, China lacks the width in the industry for its own sustained technological innovations. If nobody did invent it outside China, it can't be developed inside China. The Chinese can copy designs and use existing research, but every time, China is forced to fill gaps, things get slow and unreliable.

That is not a cultural problem, or related to communism, but actually caused by strong gaps in the education system of China - few good engineers have to deal with many badly educated workers who need a long experience in work for learning just the basics. Also workers, who are not permitted to show initiative. Initiative is limited to the top echolons - the place where most initiative is wasted since the top managers and top engineers lack the ability to do the small jobs or understand them.

Which is why China maybe now has the fastest train by application of brute force, but needs more resources for keeping this train running. For example because of higher weight or less effective motors.

Same in spaceflight. There is no Chinese Korolev who solves problems.

I didn't know that. I still maintain, however, that with the U.S. not having any spacecraft, it would be good to have more than one country with spaceflight capabilities.

 

[Urwumpe]

I didn't know that. I still maintain, however, that with the U.S. not having any spacecraft, it would be good to have more than one country with spaceflight capabilities.

Why? The six year long gap between Apollo and Space Shuttle did also not end the world. If you want to be sure, learn from the errors of the past and don't have a single spacecraft class. That all your money is on NASA now with NASA only doing one spacecraft at a time, failing also epically any task to design a successor for this one, will always lead to gaps. Because NASA will only develop a new spacecraft, if the old one doesn't fly at all. No private company could afford such follies. And really, any US company could build much better spacecraft than a Chinese state property could. Just trust them. Fight the "Not invented here" attitude inside NASA.

 

[SiberianTiger]

Same in spaceflight. There is no Chinese Korolev who solves problems.

:blink: Are you unaware of [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qian_Xuesen"]Qian Xuesen[/ame] and his scientific contributions? Also, Korolev's identity was kept secret by the USSR officials during his work on defense and space programs until his death, so, likewise, we might not know much about current drivers of Chinese space technology development.

Although, I'm afraid, our problem here is that most of the Westerners are just reluctant to learn Chinese or pay attention to Chinese affairs, which provides for a natural amount of ignorance and obscurity surrounding the actual state of things in this country. (don't return fire, I'm blaming myself too...)

 

[Pyromaniac605]

I'm with Urwumpe on this one.

Technology|China|USA|Russia\USSR
Human Flight|Yes|Yes|Yes
Docking Capability|No|Yes|Yes
Space Station|No|Yes|Yes
Reusability|No|Partial|No
No. Crew|3|7|3
EVA|Yes|Yes|Yes

Correct me on any of those, I'm not an expert with Soyuz or Shenzou.

Darren

 

[Urwumpe]

:blink: Are you unaware of Qian Xuesen and his scientific contributions? Also, Korolev's identity was kept secret by the USSR officials during his work on defense and space programs until his death, so, likewise, we might not know much about current drivers of Chinese space technology development.

I am aware, but not overestimating it. Especially his "changes" to previously existing soviet designs in Silkworm (P-15) and Dong Feng (R-2, enlarged V-2) missiles are hard to find and mostly adapting the soviet technology to Chinese parts. The evolution of the Dong Feng series is also a direct clone of the soviet developments until the USSR stopped exchanging rocket technology with China - since then, progress stalled a lot.

Although, I'm afraid, our problem here is that most of the Westerners are just reluctant to learn Chinese or pay attention to Chinese affairs, which provides for a natural amount of ignorance and obscurity surrounding the actual state of things in this country. (don't return fire, I'm blaming myself too...)

Better blame those, who see a romantic version of China... China is no magic fairy land, in which things suddenly work, that did not work somewhere else.

 

[SiberianTiger]

I'm with Urwumpe on this one.

Technology|China|USA|Russia\USSR
Human Flight|Yes|Yes|Yes
Docking Capability|No|Yes|Yes
Space Station|No|Yes|Yes
Reusability|No|Partial|No
No. Crew|3|7|3
EVA|Yes|Yes|Yes

Correct me on any of those, I'm not an expert with Soyuz or Shenzou.

Darren

I'd rather supplement the "skill set" table above with...

Technology|China|USA|Russia\USSR|Europe
Interplanetary probes|Present|Advanced|Lost|Advanced
Interplanerary landers|No|Advanced|Lost|Advanced
Interplanetary rovers|No|Advanced|Lost|No
Automatic reentry capsules|Present|Present|Present|R&D
Non-pressurized platforms|Present|Present|Poor|Present
Civilian optical remote sensing|Poor|Advanced|Poor|Present
Civilian radar remote sensing|Present|Present|No|Advanced
Civilian scientific satellites|Present|Present|R&D|Present
Civilian GEO broadcasters|Present|Present|Present|Advanced
Civilian weather satellites|Present|Advanced|Poor|Present
Civilian satellite navigation|Present|Advanced|Advanced|R&D
Military IMINT remote sensing|Present|Advanced|Poor|Advanced
Military radar remote sensing|Advanced|Advanced|Poor|Advanced
Military ELINT satellites|Present|Present|Present|Present
Military missile attack warning (MASINT) satellites|No|Present|Poor|No
Military naval targeting satellites|Present|?|Lost|No
Milstar-like satellites (GEO)|Present|Advanced|Present|Present
TDRS-like satellites (GEO)|Present|Present|No|No
LEO inspection spacecraft|Present|No|No|No
GEO inspection spacecraft|No|Present|No|No
Military weather satellites|Present|Advanced|Poor|Present
Military satellite navigation|Present|Advanced|Advanced|R&D
Annual LEO lift frequency|~10 times/y|~ 8 times/y|~20 times/y|~3 times/y
Annual GEO lift frequency|~3 times/y|~ 5 times/y|~10 times/y|~6 times/y
Cryogenic upper stages|Present|Present|R&D|Present
Space monitoring capability (NORAD-like)|?|Advanced|Present|No
Ballistic Missile intercept capability|Present|Present|Lost|No
Launch sites (active + being built)|3+1|6|2|1

Correct me if I'm wrong somewhere.