Science Calling on all orbinauts

T.Neo

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I think the ISS uses Zero-Propellant Maneuver (ZPM) to maintain it's orbit.

It maintains its attitude and the orientation of its solar arrays to reduce atmospheric drag, but it's still affected by atmospheric drag.

It likely would not come down in "days or weeks", but angling the panels in the most drag-y position would sure accelerate altitude loss... of course, the ISS constantly maintains its altitude via reboosts anyway.

With there size, they will burn up without risk and won't make as much damage as a 785 kg ROSAT mirror.

I don't think there is much worry about debris impacting the ground. The worry is about these things impacting things in space.

You seem to be misinterpreting. LEO does not mean "380 km circular orbit." Read the FAQ at the very end of the page linked in the OP, that page answers all your questions.

Yes and no. The FAQ describes the worst-case lifetime scenario (deployment failure) but not the worst-case debris scenario (I would imagine a single object would be less of a debris threat than a group of smaller objects).

And most payloads this would piggyback on wouldn't inject into purposefully low orbits, because bad air drag is obviously unwanted for the main payload(s) that this would fly with. The higher you go, the longer your on-orbit time will be.

Also, many seem to be misunderstanding the purpose of the whole endeavour. It's not just a one-time fundraiser to orbit short-lived, useless personal Sputnik. It's meant to demonstrate that satellites can be made cheap and accessible, hopefully becoming more capable and affordable through iterations of the KickSat+Sprite design. More support means better development.

Instead of reducing cost/mass with launcher technology (which is costly and will take a long time), reduce the mass with satellite technology.

"Cheap and accessible" maybe, but at the price of very little functionality (maybe there's something about the Sprite design that I'm missing here, but it just looks like a solar powered, programmable radio).

And improving launcher technology is the far superior and wide-ranging solution. Of course, it is totally out of the scope of this project so the point is moot.

But there are some payloads that you simply cannot miniaturise. Or at least cannot miniaturise considerably.

He dont have a launch date yet. First he has to reach his goal of a total of $30,000 by dec 3. Then when he reaches the goal he submits his info to NASA. They (NASA) in turn give him a launch date and the frequencies to tune into to track the satellites.

Yeah... but it would sure be nice if we saw some numbers relating to what kind of orbit these things would end up in. Something more scientific... maybe like a graph of orbital lifetime based on various different altitudes and probable orbits of primary payloads (that do not have to be actual payloads, just generic 'placeholders' with likely characteristics).
 

RS-232

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The question I have - Do people get the money back if NASA rejects the proposal or if the target is not reached?
To be honest Gary I really dont know. That would be something to ask and Email Zack. But keep feeding me the questions so we/I can get Zach on these forums to answer. Thats a good question. I can understand a malfunction (thats the risk of space flight naturally probably no refund) but if the project somehow gets scrubbed/canceled for some reason before a launch ,that is a very good question. Keep these kind of questions coming
 

River Crab

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The question I have - Do people get the money back if NASA rejects the proposal or if the target is not reached?
Answer on this page:
So I'm only charged if funding succeeds?

Yes! That's part of what makes Kickstarter special. If a project isn't successfully funded, no one pays anything.
 

captjdk

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I think this what RS232 is wondering about, Orbiter, as a quasi organization,
-from the kicksat website:
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"Are you a member of a club, society, or group of friends who would like to deploy a fleet of Sprites into space together from KickSat? You can have your group's logo on all the Sprites in your fleet (souvenirs and flight units) and we'll list your names together with your logo on the backers page of our website.

To start a Sprite fleet, one person from your group should email the name of your fleet to [email protected]. I'll follow up with that person at the end of our kickstarter campaign to get your fleet logo. Here are the currently registered fleets:

1) The British Interplanetary Society (BIS)

To sponsor a Sprite as part of a fleet, simply make a pledge at the $300 level or higher, then send an email to [email protected] with your name, donation amount, and which fleet you want to join."
----------------------------------
We could sponsor an Orbiter fleet and each Sprite could transmit something appropriate...like Dr Martin's initials or :probe:

Personally, 40 years ago I first thought it would be cool to have my own little :probe: in space transmitting to me.

If nothing else, I would use the event to satisfy a few requirements under a couple of different Boy Scout merit badges for scouts in my council. I know the kids would love it.

I'm considering it.

Dave
 

RS-232

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"Cheap and accessible" maybe, but at the price of very little functionality (maybe there's something about the Sprite design that I'm missing here, but it just looks like a solar powered, programmable radio).

Essentially yes this is all it is. This isn't about functionality, it will do just the bare minimum in order to track and plot its radio signal on a world map that we all can watch and see on say a "Live Stream" website. This is not about functionality but more about having something in space that does fly. That way as a community when we say "hail probe" it really does mean "hail probe" in a literal sense and not in a symbolic sense. Now after it does re-enter the atmosphere and burn up then the symbolic term "Hail Probe" would really be that of a symbolic but "Real" terminology as opposed to fictional one. I want " Hail Probe" to mean everything it means now but at same time I want it to represent something real. /RANT But listen you guys this subject IMO should not be that hard to comprehend. IMO everybody is so focused on getting screwed out of $300 they are missing the real meaning and point here. I believe personally in what this guy is trying to accomplish and at the same time I believe in spaceflight and sharing technology not for the matter of race,country, or religion, but in human kind and in what orbiter means to me and the great thing that Dr. Martin Schweiger has created along with the orbiter community in giving us free of charge a insight into what it could be like to experience space. If I have to do this by myself and sacrifice my own $300 to do this I will. The idea is bigger then me, or you./RANT
EDIT: This topic is starting to upset me. I really did not think it would be this hard.. Just forget it!
 
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T.Neo

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I am not worried about being "suckered" out of 2300 Rand, I am curious as to what a donation of R2300 would actually achieve.

It is nice that you feel so strongly about the philosophy that you have about this endeavour. There is nothing wrong with that sort of philosophical outlook, and I hope for Mr Manchester's sake that enough people have that sort of outlook on his project, because it is certainly interesting.

But I really wish more people would understand that sometimes, people just aren't motivated by that sort of philosophy alone.
 
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captjdk

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Essentially yes this is all it is....../RANT
EDIT: This topic is starting to upset me. I really did not think it would be this hard.. Just forget it!

Dont let anybody deter you. I used to own a Veri-Eze airplane. In the early eighties Burt Rutan sent letters to owners of his airplanes. He asked us to help sponsor his attempt to build and fly the first airplane to circumnavigate the earth nonstop, unrefueled. In exchange for donations, each would have their name on a plaque with the display of the aircraft after it finished the flight (It's now at the Smithsonian Air and Space Museum). The more you donated the bigger the perks. Not to mention being part of a grand vision.

I had an aerospace degree and a pilot. I thought about it...that's really going to be tuff. Thinking about the challenges, both machine and pilot... I finally said, nah, dont think it can happen.

Stupid me! This was Burt Rutan after all. Well, the rest is history. I did some head banging on the wall after that one :facepalm:

No moral or preaching here, just a story....you can draw your own conclusions.

I like this idea. Whether we, as a group, want to participate or not is irrelevant. I'd like to thank RS232 for bringing this project to our attention. I think Zac has an interesting project. I'll give him his Phd, a few hundred dollars and launch some junk into orbit.

We're entering a unique period in space exploration. With the ending of the shuttle program and massive funding cuts to the sciences in general and NASA in particular, it's either time for private organizations to get involved or just retreat back underneath the atmosphere. Ok, I'll climb down off the soapbox now.

Back to designing a Sprite mesh :lol:

Dave K
 

RS-232

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Ok here is the deal. Best I can tell. We know more or less what WE get out of the deal. This is what he is trying to accomplish best I can tell
http://www.spacecraftresearch.com/MII/MII_overview.html
http://news.discovery.com/space/satellite-on-a-chip-to-launch-with-space-shuttle-110516.html
It sounds like to me these little "Sprites" are small enough to mimic a dust particle and can go through space using the solar winds effectively becoming a "Probe" instead of a satellite. Although in this aspect he is just putting them in orbit. This mission will not be the last one if successful apparently. There will be newer generation Sprites after this.
 
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PennyBlack

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What the heck. I'd like to be a part of this if it's still going. The thought of investing into something viable, do-able is so darn appealing, putting something I'm a part of into actual space. To have a part in putting something up there instead of reading about another group that did it is exciting.

I don't know about this stuff or how to go about getting involed, please advise.
 

captjdk

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Ahhh, I understand now. I dont think anyone has decided on that. If we used the Orbiter name, to say start a fleet, do we need permission from Dr. Schweiger, etc.

Wouldnt hurt to send him an email and ask...dont know, I'm the noob around here.

I vote yea

Dave
 

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I dont think anyone has decided on that. If we used the Orbiter name, to say start a fleet, do we need permission from Dr. Schweiger, etc.
I'll monitor the thread and wait to see if anything happens on this and it may not be a case of any formed group/fleet being related, associated or linked with Orbiter itself, although it would be very cool to have that happen.

But I'm in for it, if a group/fleet forms. I'm a total noob at this sort of thing myself so anyone takeing this on would expect minimal input on my part, apart from support and donation. It may be good experience or it may be a flash in the pan, but I have a little spirit of enterprise for this.
 

RS-232

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I have just emailed Zach about GaryW question of a refund if the project does for some reason does not launch. I think it is a viable question. But looking at the site he is already at $21,106. He was at 15,000+ I think when I made this thread. I hope we dont miss it.
EDIT: Im not sure but on website he was talking like the message being like you initials. We are limited to 4 characters in the message. Obviously "orbiter" is more then that. We can vote for which word we want. I vote for "hope" as my choice
In meantime here are some faq's from his website:
How do I name my Sprite and specify my initials for its radio transmissions?
I'll contact you at the end of our Kickstarter fundraising period to ask for this information, as well as your shipping address for mailing your souvenir Sprite or development kit.

Last updated: Friday Oct 14, 3:23pm EDT
How many characters can my initials/message be?
Initials/messages are limited to 4 characters.

Last updated: Monday Oct 10, 8:54am EDT
Open Hardware? Open Software?
This project will release all hardware schematics, PCB designs, and source code for free download (where export restrictions permit). This will ensure that the community can continue to use, modify, and improve the designs in the future.

Last updated: Monday Oct 10, 8:54am EDT
If I donate enough to receive a developers kit can I really fly my own code?
Yes. I do need to understand what your code does and make sure that it complies with regulations and fits within technical constraints. I will work with developers to resolve issues before launch, however, I reserve the right not to fly code for any reason.

Last updated: Friday Oct 14, 4:59pm EDT
Amateur Radio Information
All information and software needed to receive signals from the Sprites will be made freely available. Anyone with the necessary hardware who wants to is encouraged to listen in!

The signals will be in the 70 cm band (around 437 MHz) at about 10 dBm EIRP. All Sprites will be on the same frequency and will use orthogonal PRN spreading codes for both unique identification and signal processing gain.

To receive the signals, you'll need a yagi antenna, a rotator, an LNA, and a software defined radio (SDR) interface for your computer. We've been using the USRP from Ettus Research, but it's pretty expensive, so we're trying to make everything work with the (much cheaper) FUNCube dongle (http://www.funcubedongle.com/) as well.

Frequency coordination with the IARU can't be done until we have KickSat slotted for a specific launch, so we won't know the exact frequency until then.

Last updated: Tuesday Oct 11, 1:20pm EDT
Do I need to pay for my own travel arrangements if I donate enough for the VIP tour or press The Big Red Button rewards?
Yes. You will have to get yourself to Ithaca, NY at your own expense, but you will then be taken care of on the day of the deployment and one night of accommodation can be provided if needed.

Last updated: Friday Oct 14, 4:39pm EDT
Aren’t you going to create a lot of space debris doing this?
Debris is a huge concern to everyone in the space community. We certainly want to be responsible space citizens in making sure that we don’t create more of it and will comply with the international rules and guidelines for debris mitigation.

While exact prediction of orbit lifetimes is difficult, the absolute worst-case lifetime for our mission would occur in the event of a deployment failure, in which KickSat is stuck in its launch configuration with all the ChipSats still inside. In that case, KickSat would lose orbital velocity due to atmospheric drag and burn up within a few months of being launched into low Earth orbit.

If the Sprites are successfully deployed, their individual orbital lifetimes will be significantly shorter than KickSat's. This is because their ballistic coefficients are much lower, so atmospheric drag has a greater affect on their orbits.

EDIT:#2 I am also trying to get in touch with http://www.n2yo.com/?s=20638 To see if once these sprites are deployed,and if given the frequencies, if they will be tracking them on thier site, If so then that will make tracking it alot easier for us. Otherwise I am looking into what hardware I may need to purchase so I can get it up and streaming on the livestream site for our viewing pleasure :thumbup:
 
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captjdk

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We could have the name Orbiter Fleet but transmit....well, PROBE has 5 letters...how about ORB.

I dont think we're going to miss out on anything. The minimum for funding is $30,000. The more the project makes, the less it has to beg NASA for a launch slot.

Dave

EDIT: Or how about DMS for Dr. Martin Schweiger
 
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RS-232

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We could have the name Orbiter Fleet but transmit....well, PROBE has 5 letters...how about ORB.

I dont think we're going to miss out on anything. The minimum for funding is $30,000. The more the project makes, the less it has to beg NASA for a launch slot.

Dave

EDIT: Or how about DMS for Dr. Martin Schweiger
Good ideas....:thumbup: I still havent heard anything from Zach or the satellite tracking website
EDIT: I take that back I did get a email from Zack
Zachary Manchester says:

Hi,

We're going to use all the money to purchase and build hardware. It's basically all going to get spent building KickSat, and there's not really any way we could refund it at that point.

I understand your apprehension, and I'm sorry we can't guarantee a launch. It's just the way the system works - if we apply for one of the NASA launches and don't deliver flight hardware, we'll be charged thousands of dollars in fees and will probably never have another chance at getting one, so we can't apply until we know for sure we can deliver the hardware.

There are many launch opportunities for CubeSats every year from NASA, SpaceX, and others. We stand a very good chance of getting one through the NASA ELaNa program, and we'll just keep applying to every opportunity until we get a launch - I fully plan on seeing this through.

Let me know if you have any more questions.

- Zac


---------- Post added at 01:43 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:19 AM ----------

UPDATE:
The satellite tracking website http://www.n2yo.com/?s=20638 has replyed back to me

The software used for tracking is using mainly space surveillance data
provided by "Space Track", a website consisting of a partial catalog of
observations collected by the US Space Surveillance Network, operated by US
Air Force Space Command (AFSPC). In special circumstances for a few
satellites the traking data ("keplerian elements") are derived from public
sources (monitoring or visual observation).
So if the orbital elements will be available, n2yo.com will be able to
perform tracking.

Thanks,
Chip
Well I guess I need to look into purchasing some radio hardware :facepalm: Let me do some research on this now
 
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PennyBlack

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I've been playing with that satelite tracking site. It's a neat site and it gave me an idea...

What if a small sized mesh was created matching the same size dimentions as the advertised sprite and textured to match. Packaged with a scenario based on the planned speed, altitude and path as the real sprites. For fun. :lol:
 

T.Neo

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No moral or preaching here, just a story....you can draw your own conclusions.

My conclusion is that you're doing something that sounds like preaching. :p

But seriously now: that is a nice story. Still not a reason enough for some people to invest in a project.

If thinking Burt Rutan was nuts and not donating to his project is a reason to invest in something, why not invest in my fictional business to grow house-sized pumpkins?

Of course it is not a good idea to dismiss it offhand... maybe it is a great idea and there is some magic in it that makes it work. But it also doesn't make sense to basically just have the opinion of "Hurz, I like pumpkins. Pumpkins are cool", and go with it because of that.

Having your own 'spacecraft' (nanosatellite) that broadcasts your initials to amateur radio users is a nice idea, but frankly I find it a blindingly useless. If I can supposedly have my name encoded on a computer chip on the MSL for free , why should I bother donating $300 for effectively the same thing?

I am sorry, I understand the point of reducing the cost of spaceflight, but this method obviously has its limitations and its applications. Nothing wrong with that. I understand that there seems to be a theory (which I admit to not reading up on) behind using such spacecraft for other applications, and there isn't anything wrong with that either- aside from the fact that it is perhaps not as well described as it could be.

And if you feel so strongly about something like this: there is nothing wrong with that either. I respect that.

But please, if someone does not share your enthusiasm in the same way, do not act to the effect of "you do not Believe, you are always wrong".
 

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But I'm in for it, if a group/fleet forms. I'm a total noob at this sort of thing myself so anyone takeing this on would expect minimal input on my part, apart from support and donation. It may be good experience or it may be a flash in the pan, but I have a little spirit of enterprise for this.

Yeah, if we could get the price per person down to around $30, ie;ten people wanting to do it, I'd be interested!
 

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Ok, I've done a 3d mesh of the Sprite and textured it. I'm creating the scenario file to put into an orbit and will compile the zip file for upload. It'll be in a low Earth orbit and hopefully it will be in a slow spin. It's just a gimmick to give a sense of feel to Zacs project and show RS-232 what it might look like in space. It's not to scale, but is close...

Sprite1.jpg
 
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