99942 Apophis and religious coincidences

iamwearingpants

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I've known about 99942 Apophis and the impact risk (Very small, 1 in 250000) but a few months ago I noticed these strange coincidences, which are unlikely.
BEWARE: SLIGHTLY RELIGIOUS CONTENT
  • Will possibly impact Earth on Easter Sunday.
  • Passes by gravitational keyhole on a Friday the 13th
  • Exact 7 year period between close pass and possible impact
  • Some believe the tribulation will last 7 years
  • Close pass happens in 2029 (beware of skynet :lol:)

Compare these side-by-side:
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribulation"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribulation[/ame] [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/99942_Apophis"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/99942_Apophis[/ame]

I'm not a religious person, but I think there may be some kind of connection between the bible and science. The problem is the ancient people have no way of knowing this would happen, which makes is even more weird.

Cant wait for 2029 :p
 

T.Neo

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Also coincidence: I was reading about the Tribulation earlier... :shifty:

Very interesting and amusing, the part about Skynet cracked me up. :lol:
 

Jarvitä

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there may be some kind of connection between the bible and science

Yeah, no.

This is where I'd normally list some of the passages that show your claim to be ridiculous, but I can't be bothered. Trying to list them all would be a prime example of an exercise in futility in any case.
 

iamwearingpants

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Yeah, no.

This is where I'd normally list some of the passages that show your claim to be ridiculous, but I can't be bothered. Trying to list them all would be a prime example of an exercise in futility in any case.

It's not much, most of the bible is just metaphors for stuff.
But a few parts of the bible are metaphors for historical stuff like
volcanic eruptions or floods from the melting the ice
at the end of the last ice age. Like historical stuff. Maybe I worded it wrong:facepalm:
 

Urwumpe

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It's not much, most of the bible is just metaphors for stuff.
But a few parts of the bible are metaphors for historical stuff like
volcanic eruptions or floods from the melting the ice
at the end of the last ice age. Like historical stuff. Maybe I worded it wrong:facepalm:

"Like historical stuff" is no replacement for facts. Otherwise you soon start to believe that Jules Verne predicted the Apollo program.

Also, 90% of the so-called scientific historical facts of the Bible, are revisionist claims by pseudo-scientists, who pick simply positive evidence for their claims and ignore all contradicting attributes of the same evidence. Like Noahs Arc really having been build and the flood really happening, because big floods happened. Every culture has their own flood myth - but all have differences. It is not even likely that Jesus existed. which is one of the things that any Christian can hardly accept without feeling strange. The Jews have a very detailed chronic of the events around the time when Jesus was claimed to have lived. and it does not mention any of the bigger events in the life of Jesus. Despite the author having been sure eye witness of them. (Contrary to those people who wrote the new testament. The version that Christians use to base their faith on, had been written by people who never have been in Judea, or must have been at least small children then, and write the first known versions as 90 year olds, after learning ancient Greek language so good, that they are also adept of local metaphors and phrases in that language.)

The Bible does tell a lot of stuff, that is likely already lost so deeply in translation, that most Christians that try to follow the Bible literally are not understanding the Bible at all.

Also, many myths and legends are very widespread by the same core events that sparked them had simply been pretty common.

Take the myth of Atlantis. Did you know that there is a very similar myth in Northern Germany, about the sunken city of Rungholt? A large rich city in northern europe, right in front of the German coast, that was destroyed by the sea because of the heresy of their citizens? Note the common patterns - large city, rich, people from all places of the world as well. Destroyed by the sea.

The difference is: Atlantis is still not found, Rungholt is (in 1920). The real Rungholt wasn't as large as in the legend, but a pretty large town for the cultural region and era. Was destroyed in a major storm flood in the 14th century as we know today, and by the evidence, really in a sudden event as the legend stated (a kind of sub-sea avalanche took it with it). The myth was started in a time, when nobody in central Europe knew about Platos texts, especially not the fishers that told the Rungholt legend, that eventually became topic of a famous northern German poem, "Trutz, Blanke Hans" (translated into English from low Saxon: "We resist you, white Hans"; White Hans is personification of storm floods at the continental North Sea coast)

Still: Somehow Plato told the same story. Using different names and metaphors as the northern German Rungholz legend. Possibly he heard like the author of the German poem, a legend of a real flood, and decorated it a bit more. Or even had the legend of the flood already decorated by previous generations.

Does that now mean, that all legends have a true core. Yes, of course. Human imagination is not infinite in that context, otherwise it can't be told to others. They need concepts and pictures they can understand.

But does that already mean, that legends are true? Sure not. That is part of the legendary, the inability to tell fact from fiction. The poem placed the destruction of Rungholt over 100 years earlier than it really was. Some earlier legends of it even got as far down as many thousand years earlier.

One day, if we don't watch out, such true events like Apollo or the cold war, will become legends as well.
 
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T.Neo

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Otherwise you soon start to believe that Jules Verne predicted the Apollo program.

Or that I predicted the early CEV Orion designs by drawing an Apollo capsule with attached solar panels as a kid...
 

Urwumpe

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Or that I predicted the early CEV Orion designs by drawing an Apollo capsule with attached solar panels as a kid...

Exactly. Or build a company that tries to predict stock market prices by the look of chicken innards.
 

TSPenguin

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I certainly couldn't make any trip without BoneThrowingMFD :rofl:
 

DanM

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Who cares. We will all be dead on Dec. 21, 2012 anyway.

:p
Please tell me that was sarcastic. That 2012 stuff is almost as annoying as moon hoax conspiracy "theories".
 

iamwearingpants

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"Like historical stuff" is no replacement for facts. Otherwise you soon start to believe that Jules Verne predicted the Apollo program.

Also, 90% of the so-called scientific historical facts of the Bible, are revisionist claims by pseudo-scientists, who pick simply positive evidence for their claims and ignore all contradicting attributes of the same evidence. Like Noahs Arc really having been build and the flood really happening, because big floods happened. Every culture has their own flood myth - but all have differences. It is not even likely that Jesus existed. which is one of the things that any Christian can hardly accept without feeling strange. The Jews have a very detailed chronic of the events around the time when Jesus was claimed to have lived. and it does not mention any of the bigger events in the life of Jesus. Despite the author having been sure eye witness of them. (Contrary to those people who wrote the new testament. The version that Christians use to base their faith on, had been written by people who never have been in Judea, or must have been at least small children then, and write the first known versions as 90 year olds, after learning ancient Greek language so good, that they are also adept of local metaphors and phrases in that language.)

The Bible does tell a lot of stuff, that is likely already lost so deeply in translation, that most Christians that try to follow the Bible literally are not understanding the Bible at all.

Also, many myths and legends are very widespread by the same core events that sparked them had simply been pretty common.

Take the myth of Atlantis. Did you know that there is a very similar myth in Northern Germany, about the sunken city of Rungholt? A large rich city in northern europe, right in front of the German coast, that was destroyed by the sea because of the heresy of their citizens? Note the common patterns - large city, rich, people from all places of the world as well. Destroyed by the sea.

The difference is: Atlantis is still not found, Rungholt is (in 1920). The real Rungholt wasn't as large as in the legend, but a pretty large town for the cultural region and era. Was destroyed in a major storm flood in the 14th century as we know today, and by the evidence, really in a sudden event as the legend stated (a kind of sub-sea avalanche took it with it). The myth was started in a time, when nobody in central Europe knew about Platos texts, especially not the fishers that told the Rungholt legend, that eventually became topic of a famous northern German poem, "Trutz, Blanke Hans" (translated into English from low Saxon: "We resist you, white Hans"; White Hans is personification of storm floods at the continental North Sea coast)

Still: Somehow Plato told the same story. Using different names and metaphors as the northern German Rungholz legend. Possibly he heard like the author of the German poem, a legend of a real flood, and decorated it a bit more. Or even had the legend of the flood already decorated by previous generations.

Does that now mean, that all legends have a true core. Yes, of course. Human imagination is not infinite in that context, otherwise it can't be told to others. They need concepts and pictures they can understand.

But does that already mean, that legends are true? Sure not. That is part of the legendary, the inability to tell fact from fiction. The poem placed the destruction of Rungholt over 100 years earlier than it really was. Some earlier legends of it even got as far down as many thousand years earlier.

One day, if we don't watch out, such true events like Apollo or the cold war, will become legends as well.

I completely agree that most Christians don't understand it, and that there was no ark, or probably Jesus, and I get your point. But can we hold off the religious discussion and focus on the topic of the thread? I've seen in other forums that it turns into a flame war and results in a closed thread :)
 

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the 7 years of tribulation is a concept that springs from a linearly historical interpretation of revelations, which is not shared by most christians, and only by a minority of theologians. Also, bringing it into relation to the time an asteroid needs from closest pass to impact is completely ignoring what the tribulation in that interpretation actually is. It's (thought to be) a time of severe prosecution of christians, which doesn't really have any connection to an asteroid impact (at least none I can see). As such, yes, it's funny coincidences, but they happen on a regular basis. You can do all kinds of interesting and fun numerological stuff with most holy book. Coincidences happen.

Another such coincidence: I'm currently reading several commentaries on revelations :lol:. Most of the linear historic interpretations fail for the reason that the world should have ended by now, but of course there is a new one around, strongly connected to Dominionism theology, which is so abhorent that I won't even bother considering it. Basically it's the good old "christians should conquer the world to bring about the kingdom of god"-idea again. But I like the wording on Wikipedia... "christian futurist view" hits it pretty precisely on the head, I think, as this interpretation of revelation found its most exhaustive "commentary" in the series of "sf"-Novels "left behind".
 
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Urwumpe

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I completely agree that most Christians don't understand it, and that there was no ark, or probably Jesus, and I get your point. But can we hold off the religious discussion and focus on the topic of the thread? I've seen in other forums that it turns into a flame war and results in a closed thread :)

actually, my post is not about religion, but about legends and how to not get betrayed by them...that you used the Bible just made bible stories the better example of lacking coincidence. ;)
 

Linguofreak

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Also, 90% of the so-called scientific historical facts of the Bible, are revisionist claims by pseudo-scientists, who pick simply positive evidence for their claims and ignore all contradicting attributes of the same evidence. Like Noahs Arc really having been build and the flood really happening, because big floods happened. Every culture has their own flood myth - but all have differences. It is not even likely that Jesus existed.

Secular historians certainly tend to be of the opinion that the story of Noah's Ark is purely mythical, but I'm pretty sure that the consensus among secular historians is that Jesus did in fact exist, simply that the miracles attributed to him never happened, and that the resurrection never happened.

which is one of the things that any Christian can hardly accept without feeling strange.

Well, the non-existence of Jesus is something that no Christian can accept without becoming something other than a Christian. You can't very well do away with Jesus Christ and still have the term Christian mean anything.

The Jews have a very detailed chronic of the events around the time when Jesus was claimed to have lived. and it does not mention any of the bigger events in the life of Jesus. Despite the author having been sure eye witness of them.

If you're referring to Josephus, he was born in 37 AD, while the Crucifixion is generally dated to around 33 AD. So he was not an eyewitness.

(Contrary to those people who wrote the new testament. The version that Christians use to base their faith on, had been written by people who never have been in Judea, or must have been at least small children then, and write the first known versions as 90 year olds, after learning ancient Greek language so good, that they are also adept of local metaphors and phrases in that language.)

AFAIK, Luke is generally said in secular circles to have been written between 80 and 90 AD. This would mean that if the author was 20 at the time of the crucifixion, he would have been between 67 and 77 when he wrote Luke.

Furthermore, one of the key factors used by secular historians in dating the Synoptic gospels is that the destruction of the Temple occurred in 70 AD. They assume that accurate prophecies are impossible, and so they place the Synoptic gospels, which contain such a prophecy, after 70 AD. But this is to some degree begging the question.
 

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A bit off-topic, maybe some moderator will delete or move it.

Secular historians certainly tend to be of the opinion that the story of Noah's Ark is purely mythical, but I'm pretty sure that the consensus among secular historians is that Jesus did in fact exist, simply that the miracles attributed to him never happened, and that the resurrection never happened.

Don't make the error to promote religious zealots into the rank of a historian, a kind of scientist, by differing between secular and clerical historians. Either you follow the scientific method, or you don't. And if you don't, you are no scientist. Theology is not history. Theology is sure borrowing information and evidence from history, but its primary focus is the study of religious works and concepts. It is also the other way around, religious literature has often helped discovering historic evidence.

Well, the non-existence of Jesus is something that no Christian can accept without becoming something other than a Christian. You can't very well do away with Jesus Christ and still have the term Christian mean anything.

Exactly. You can't stop believing in this core column of your faith without loosing it. It is possibly a taboo for many Christian researchers, except those who believe that the Bible is not meant to be considered literal, but as metaphor for transporting concepts.


If you're referring to Josephus, he was born in 37 AD, while the Crucifixion is generally dated to around 33 AD. So he was not an eyewitness.

Not Josephus - Josephus works mention Jesus, but doesn't mention any of his disciples or the later apostles. But it is not very likely that Josephus really wrote this (the small paragraph praising Jesus reads like a foreign object in the book, as if it was written into the book by somebody later)

Also, the 33 AD is a revisionist claim, it simply fits into the documented tour of duty of Pilate, but has actually no evidence that it happened. Even Tacitus, a roman author who is attributed with a paragraph about Jesus 60 years later, did not mention it.

Remember the problem: The only evidence of such works we have are copies by Christian clerics, that had been produced 1000 years later. Considering the low standards on book preservation back then, it could be the 50th edition of the original work in such a long time.

AFAIK, Luke is generally said in secular circles to have been written between 80 and 90 AD. This would mean that if the author was 20 at the time of the crucifixion, he would have been between 67 and 77 when he wrote Luke.

Again, don't rely just on confirming evidence - because the date of crucifixion that you use is based on Lukes gospel, so you use circular arguments there.

Furthermore, one of the key factors used by secular historians in dating the Synoptic gospels is that the destruction of the Temple occurred in 70 AD. They assume that accurate prophecies are impossible, and so they place the Synoptic gospels, which contain such a prophecy, after 70 AD. But this is to some degree begging the question.

And still...remember that circular argument problem. The only sources for the crucifixion are the gospels, that all contradict each other about many important events (for example the opinion of Pilate about Jesus and the roles of the Jews). Also, all gospels had been written by people, who use perfect ancient Greek language (the scientific lingua franca back then), and still claim to be eye witnesses. All metaphors and constructs in the earliest forms of the gospel are ancient Greek - it is even possible to tell which region of the Roman Empire back then used such a Ancient Greek language, from comparison with other (secular) writings.

The current state evidence is, that we can't tell that Christianity really spread from Judea. The best available evidence is limited to the point, that it came from inside the Roman Empire, possibly created among Jewish slaves or scholars. Before 70 AD, we have no evidence of any Christianity. That does not mean that it is impossible. It just means that we are blind in that era, because historic records that are beyond reasonable doubt do not mention the "Christian Big Bang". The best evidence we have in favor of Jesus existence is just 1000 years old, and was written as nth copy of an old manuscript 1000 years after the original author lived.

We can't even tell when Jesus really lived, because we made already an arbitrary birth date of Jesus the beginning of our time system. How much accuracy we have left there, is already impossible to be told. Damn, we can't even really believe that Charlemagne existed, despite his realm turned Europe upside down in a positive sense.

We can't even really tell, who Jesus actually was, because all evidence we have is deeply contradicting. Every gospel writes about a different character, with often differing religious views. all that the authors really agree on, is the name of the Jewish king, when Jesus was born (which had been Herodes for the whole initial century of Roman dominance over Judea, they all had the same name, with differing titles). They all agree that Jesus was a virgin birth as miracle, but that could already be revisionism, it has a lot in common with the genetics of god-kings at that time, who had strangely been born by human mothers, but had deities as parents. But then things get strange, confuse and suddenly jump 30 years into the future.

Then they become more contradicting, have more differing viewpoints, until they converge again when Jesus is crucified because of being an Jewish heretic at a time, when Judea was still ruled by a Jewish absolutist monarchy representing the interests of the Roman Empire. The kings and priests didn't rule the country anymore, that was already done by Roman prefects, like Pilate, but still represented the order. The Romans had their rule justified by Jewish puppet rulers until the first Jewish war.

If a real Jesus existed, the gospels are based on stories about him, but not written by people who really knew the real person and witnessed it. Nobody can explain why the son of a carpenter did one day become a Jewish revolutionizer, but it is not impossible, we know better documented examples of humans who had become greater than life persons in the spotlight of history, just by fulfilling their role on top of a wave of people who just waited for somebody to do the first step. Maybe he was the first spark of a Jewish revolution, justifying his actions by the corruption of the Jewish priests, who supported the bigot Romans against their own Jewish brothers.

But we don't know it. There is no evidence of not even this very worldly interpretation of the legend. We can tell that maximal 120 years after his death, Christianity formed behind his legend in different groups that seem to feel inspired by his actions. and still it feels like a Jewish uprising against Roman tyrants, that survived as a religion when the romans became suddenly Christians themselves... pretty much like the ongoing revolutions in Cuba and North Korea.
 

jedidia

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Nobody can explain why the son of a carpenter did one day become a Jewish revolutionizer

Actually, revolutionizer isn't a fitting term, at least not according to the gospel. Some in-depth comparative research between jesus' teachings and Rabbinic tradition shows that first and foremost, his teachings were well within the boundaries of established Rabbinic traditions in pretty much everything written in the gospel. It's his claim to be the messiah that caught many on the wrong foot (quite understandably), as well as his pretty anti-romean attitude, which certainly did not go well with the pharisees. Still, revolutionist is not correct, since he never sided with the zealots and indeed seemed to reject armed revolution completely (a worthy read about jesus and his political attitudes is Ernst Ellerts "christian anarchy". It's actually more about theology and politics, but he makes some very good points about Jesus' relation to gouvernement).

Also, being a carpenter did not exclude you from having the highest jewish theological education at the time, which jesus must have had if he was indeed addressed by the title of "Rabi" (in contrast to Paul, who had a much lower education). Indeed it was the norm that you went into theology after learning a common trade, and many rabbies where still following their trade even after their education, unless they had the opportunity to take stewardship of a synagoge or went freelance wandering preacher, as Jesus did. So, at least how Jesus became a well educated teacher is not a mystery at all.

I'm not so much concerned by him being depicted differently in the gospels. If my Sister and I would independantly write a biography of our father, the outcomes would be quite different. Everyone brings in his own points of view and projections, especially if some time passes between the events and the time they write it down. Also, several details might be forgotten or misplaced. If the gospels are read complementary rather than competitive, quite a nice picture emerges, with the odd point every now and then.

And I guess this really starts to deserve its own topic... It might just be possible that someone digs up the flamethrower somewhere sooner or later.
 

Urwumpe

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Actually, revolutionizer isn't a fitting term, at least not according to the gospel. Some in-depth comparative research between jesus' teachings and Rabbinic tradition shows that first and foremost, his teachings were well within the boundaries of established Rabbinic traditions in pretty much everything written in the gospel. It's his claim to be the messiah that caught many on the wrong foot (quite understandably), as well as his pretty anti-romean attitude, which certainly did not go well with the pharisees. Still, revolutionist is not correct, since he never sided with the zealots and indeed seemed to reject armed revolution completely (a worthy read about jesus and his political attitudes is Ernst Ellerts "christian anarchy". It's actually more about theology and politics, but he makes some very good points about Jesus' relation to gouvernement).

Well, maybe he just was more successful for being moderate. Still, many of his teachings are sure not normal Jewish teachings, they are still pretty blasphemous for a conservative Jewish teacher.

Also, what troubles me more, are the missing 30 years. Did really nothing happen then? Or did maybe nobody really know the birth of Jesus, and people just added this legend later?

Also, being a carpenter did not exclude you from having the highest jewish theological education at the time, which jesus must have had if he was indeed addressed by the title of "Rabi" (in contrast to Paul, who had a much lower education). Indeed it was the norm that you went into theology after learning a common trade, and many rabbies where still following their trade even after their education, unless they had the opportunity to take stewardship of a synagoge or went freelance wandering preacher, as Jesus did. So, at least how Jesus became a well educated teacher is not a mystery at all.

ok, that explains how to become one, but it does still not explain the "what happened in those 30 years that are not mentioned".

What if the legend of his birth was included later to make him divine, just like the legend of his rebirth? Such kind of revisionism is commonplace, but what would that make of Jesus? His core teachings would still exist, but the message becomes easily abused for religious agendas.

I'm not so much concerned by him being depicted differently in the gospels. If my Sister and I would independantly write a biography of our father, the outcomes would be quite different. Everyone brings in his own points of view and projections, especially if some time passes between the events and the time they write it down. Also, several details might be forgotten or misplaced. If the gospels are read complementary rather than competitive, quite a nice picture emerges, with the odd point every now and then.

But still, you would likely agree on the big points and remember the aspects important events in his life, even if you have different points of view.

And I guess this really starts to deserve its own topic... It might just be possible that someone digs up the flamethrower somewhere sooner or later.

Exactly, it explodes already beyond the scope of the thread.
 

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OK, please let's keep this thread on topic (the uncanny Apophis coincidences). They are, indeed, really weird. (please, don't say something mystical or religious)
 

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Just give me any number or date and I will find a mystical coincidence for it. any one is good for that. Maybe the day on that your dog died? The day of the year was maybe fitting to a good quote in the revelations.
 
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