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Linguofreak

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In order to regain political power, the traditionally boring Republican party of Barry Goldwater had to make the infamous devil’s bargain with the religious right and the rest, as they say, is history.

How exactly would you say it was a devils bargain? I ask because I sometimes get the feeling that the we on the religious right made a bit of a devil's bargain with the Republican party. (Since the Democratic party embraced the cultural shift of the late 60's/early 70', and since that cultural shift was fairly offensive to us, we turned to the Republican party on the "enemy of my enemy" principle, and I'm not sure that it has turned out entirely for the best.)
 

tblaxland

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Thanks for the history Greg. I've always struggled for a clear definition of the term "liberal", in particular I couldn't understand how our right-wing Liberal Party could subscribe to "liberal conservatism". As you rightly point out, conservatives and liberals used to be at opposite ends of the political spectrum. Digging deeper, you find that what the Liberal Party is talking about is that they are liberal in an economic sense and conservative in a social sense.
 

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How exactly would you say it was a devils bargain? I ask because I sometimes get the feeling that the we on the religious right made a bit of a devil's bargain with the Republican party. (Since the Democratic party embraced the cultural shift of the late 60's/early 70', and since that cultural shift was fairly offensive to us, we turned to the Republican party on the "enemy of my enemy" principle, and I'm not sure that it has turned out entirely for the best.)

Well, I've been called a "South Park Republican," and although the label is incorrect, if I were then, yes, I'd be one of those fellows you feel uncomfortable being in the same party with. Philosophically, I'm a thoroughgoing "materialist" or "naturalist" in the metaphysical sense, i.e. what you see is what you get -- no ghosts, goblins or gods. Epistemologically, if it's not subject to falsifiability, then it doesn't count as knowledge to me.

On a practical level, so long as you really and truly observe the 1st Amendment, I don't care if you believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or Cthulu, or that Haile Salassie was the second coming of Christ. The problem begins if you want to use my money to teach your religious dogma in public schools and, of course, the real issue is whether a woman's uterus is subject to state jurisdiction, or whether the state has any business making laws about what chemicals I can put into my body or what part of another consenting adult's body I can touch.
 

n0mad23

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...and it grows ever more interesting.

A brief insight into why I started this thread was in fact Greg's post about doing the same things again and again and expecting different results. I thought it was ironic, as I'm sure Greg's at least a big a fan of Slick Willy as I am (though for probably for many different reasons, and more than one identical). I seem to remember one of his political speeches the first time around saying the same thing.

Which proves that sometimes gems of wisdom can come from surprising sources. Let's remember who originally said, "The great strength of the totalitarian state is it causes those who fear it to imitate it."

I suspect a lot of the vitriolic responses to emotional issues have exactly to do with what's being discussed now. Namely, misuse of language causes glitches in the operating system.
 

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Thus a fairly extreme left-winger in the US would be considered moderate or even right-wing in Europe, for instance.


Thanks for saying that, at least someone recognizes that labels are pretty much a waste of time. I have sided with the democrats often, although not always, and have never considered myself a liberal, even by American standards. I believe that education, firearms ownership, and an unregulated media are the best defenses against tyranny. At the same time, I will fight churches trying to turn the US into a feudal theocracy of ignorant begging peasants until my dying day.

On the subject of sound bite labels, there are quite a few I have come to despise. "Liberal" vs. "Conservative". Liberal in the US is quite often used as a filthy slur to suggest someone as anti-Jesus and anti-American. Usually applied by the extreme right to anyone who thinks even slightly different. "Conservative" used to mean reasonable people who conserved the environment, or my money, and did not subject everyone else to their whacked out ideology whether they wanted it or not. Not so much anymore.

I don't know what happened to this country that everyone wants to think in two syllable sound bites rather than realize that is more complexity to most issues. "With us or against us", "Good vs. Evil" Is it too much crack or weed? laziness? Beer? Too many Superfriends cartoons? We seem to have become a nation of Junior high schoolers who think backward and try to make everything about being hip and trendy, including who runs the government.

"No-Brainer". Words cannot describe how much I hate that phrase. That kind of thinking got us right where we are.

"Nothing personal, just business" Quite often used by bible quoting big money Jesus businessmen. If they actually understood it, they would know that Jesus said it was ALL personal.

"Just doing my job" I wonder how many times that was said at the Neuremburg trials. People say this like it excuses them of any behavior, no matter how deplorable.

"Equality" A fools dream. Equality is hell. If you want a good example, read "Harrison Bergeron" by Kurt Vonnegut. Equity is the right term, and the right goal. I will never be the equal of some of you in this forum in some areas, and some of you will never be mine in others. I will never be the equal of any woman in some areas, nor will they be mine in others. The idea is that working together as a group for the good of all, we combine our strengths and negate our weaknesses.

"Bargain or Beg" One of my favorites actually. This to me is the crux of it all. Do I bargain as an educated professional or a skilled craftsman? In a society whose premise is to promote from within the best that ALL of its populace has to offer? Or do I beg, as a servant, in a guard-gated religious run third world crudhole where the needs of the royal few are served at the expense of the "unworthy". Royalty and even the fabricated concept of it we seem to be reviving as of late is something else I hate with a passion. I base most if not all of my voting on it.

Getting proper renumeration for services rendered as part of collective bargaining arrangements as opposed to begging for the cut-throat hand outs of the Lord and lady of the Manor. This is another that I like, "Just due payment vs. Charity"

The world has taught me that for the most part, people only listen to you when you can hurt them, otherwise they ignore you, pay you nothing, or get to you when they get to you. If you can hurt them, finacially, or otherwise, this is "bargain". Since this is impossible for most regular people, it must usually be done in numbers. If you are alone, broke, and cannot hurt anyone, this is "beg"

As you can see, this thread was right up my alley, thanks :)
 

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Well, I've been called a "South Park Republican," and although the label is incorrect, if I were then, yes, I'd be one of those fellows you feel uncomfortable being in the same party with. Philosophically, I'm a thoroughgoing "materialist" or "naturalist" in the metaphysical sense, i.e. what you see is what you get -- no ghosts, goblins or gods. Epistemologically, if it's not subject to falsifiability, then it doesn't count as knowledge to me.

I have some stuff to say here but it may take a while to organize my thoughts, so I'll let it go for now. Suffice it to say that my problem is not so much with people like you as it is with the way certain Republican ideas that I do not think are really Christian have worked their way into the way that Christians think in this country as a result of Christians becoming so entangled with the party.

On a practical level, so long as you really and truly observe the 1st Amendment, I don't care if you believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or Cthulu, or that Haile Salassie was the second coming of Christ. The problem begins if you want to use my money to teach your religious dogma in public schools

This is a tough one. I tend not to be a strong anti-evolutionist (or a strong evolutionist for that matter, there have been too many strong Christians on both sides of the debate), but there remains the fact that a fairly good portion of the evangelical crowd feels that just as strongly that their money is being used to teach their children a dogma that they don't support. I'm not entirely sure that I can suggest a good solution, but I can say there is a problem, on both sides.

and, of course, the real issue is whether a woman's uterus is subject to state jurisdiction,

The real issue is whether a developing baby is, at any given point, a person. Before it is a person (if such a time exists), then yes, the matter is simply one of the woman choosing what to do with her own body. But as soon as that baby is a person, it becomes a matter of that baby ever being able to make any choices at all. The state has as much jurisdiction to protect that baby as it does to protect any other person within its borders.

Even if you don't believe that a baby is a person from conception forward, there remains the question of how much blood on your hands you're willing to risk if you guess wrong about when or whether the change from non-person to person occurs. According to the CDC there were about 2.4 million deaths in 2004, abortions not included. If you add the 840,000-or-so legal abortions recorded by the CDC for the same year (not including illegal abortions or abortions in areas for which data was not collected), you get 3.2 million deaths, with abortion accounting for a bit more than a quarter of those, and surpassing heart disease as the leading cause of death. You may not consider the unborn to be people, but take a hard look at those numbers and consider what they mean if you're wrong.

The two CDC documents in question are linked below. The PDF on death statistics gave me some trouble when I tried to read it off the web. I had to download it first. I used the 2004 statistics because they were the most recent that I could find for both abortion and death rates on the CDC site.

Death statistics: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr56/nvsr56_05.pdf

The relevant table (Table C), is on page 8.

I grabbed the "All causes" figure for deaths in 2004, and rounded to the nearest 100,000.

Abortion stats:
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5609a1.htm

I grabbed the figure under "Results" in the abstract and rounded to the nearest 10,000

or whether the state has any business making laws about what chemicals I can put into my body

Another toughy. I think that it is good to illegalize certain substances (crack cocaine, for instance), and to illegalize certain actions while under the influence of certain substances (e.g. drunk driving), but Christian scripture doesn't really say anything about any such substance but alcohol, and OK's its use, but forbids overindulgence. Maybe a good route would be to not have any legal penalties per se for posession or use of any substance, but to have sharply increased sentences for any crime commited, or accidental damage or injury done, under the influence, especially that of the harder drugs (as well as for any crime commited in an attempt to obtain such substances). It's a bit softer than I'd like (the hard drugs should be illegal even to posess, IMHO), but as long as there are penalties for damaging actions taken when a person has voluntarily impaired themself in such a fashion, or it the attempt to get a drug to which they are addicted, I could live with it.

or what part of another consenting adult's body I can touch.

You can touch whatever part of whatever consenting adult you want. *However,* neither you nor the state may prevent me from telling you that that behavior is morally wrong if I find it to be so, or force me to sanction that behavior if I find it objectionable. (And just the same, neither I nor the state can prevent you from telling me where I can put my morals if you don't agree).
 

Belisarius

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In order to regain political power, the traditionally boring Republican party of Barry Goldwater had to make the infamous devil’s bargain with the religious right and the rest, as they say, is history.

So – what is a real American “liberal” to call himself or herself? If Comrades Nader and Kucinich and Boxer call themselves “liberals,” then the word has truly become an Orwellian linguistic trick. “Libertarian” is the closest we have to a term that has the meaning that the term had 80 years ago. But that word has become problematic for me, personally, for reasons I won’t go into here, but that I’ve hinted at elsewhere on the forum. “Minarchist” is accurate, but a linguistic ticket to having to make a lengthy explanation. Unfortunately for me, the theft of the term “liberal” has left me, personally, with no satisfying term to describe my political philosophy, if I’m to be understood.

Re the hijacking of the Republican party by the anti-rationalists, Barry Goldwater had a few choice things to say. Clearly he wasn't very much in favour of it:

"I'm frankly sick and tired of political preachers across this country telling me as a citizen that if I want to be a moral person, I must believe in A,B,C, or D. Just who do they think they are? And from where do they presume to claim the right to dictate their moral beliefs to me? And I am even more angry as a legislator who must endure the threats of every religious group who thinks it has some God-granted right to control my vote on every roll-call in the Senate. I am warning them today: I will fight them every step of the way if they try to dictate their moral convictions to all Americans in the name of conservatism."
Congressional Record, 16 September 1981

Poor Barry. He understood what conservatism really was, that it was based on Enlightenment values of rationality and skepticism. He tried to fight the anti-rationalists but failed, and now they rule the roost. Every Republican politician, if he/she wants to succeed, has to make placating noises to the "political preachers" and think carefully before trying to defy them on policy.

Re What someone with your political beliefs should call him or herself, I have a few suggestions:

-Skeptical Conservative OR Skepticist
-Rationalist (doesn't sound very political)
-Freedom-Lover (a bit vague and wishy-washy, I suppose everyone would say they're one of those even if they aren't)
-O'Rourkist (I had the pleasure of meeting PJ many years ago, what a smart and funny guy he was. Maybe it's a bit much to name a political philosphy after him, though)
-Enlightener

A friend of mine with the same need to label himself calls himself a classical-liberal. I don't think that works very well, people tend to think he's Jane Fonda with a liking for Beethoven.
I think it's true you need a label for your political discourse, if not people won't even listen to you. Unless there's a clear direction to where you are going with your argument, eyes will glaze over even faster than normal. Don't use Minarchist, though, it's an ugly word.
 

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I'm not sure I have time today to do justice to your very good post, and for what it's worth, I intentionally used rhetoric in my post intended to elicit a good reply from you -- and it worked (an old Jeddi trial lawyer mind trick ;)). A few quick thoughts:

... [snip] ... a fairly good portion of the evangelical crowd feels that just as strongly that their money is being used to teach their children a dogma that they don't support. I'm not entirely sure that I can suggest a good solution, but I can say there is a problem, on both sides.

One reason this issue engenders such strong feelings on both sides is that it really does go to the heart of a fundamental philosophical issue. So much of modern politics is just a shallow puppet show, but both sides of this (and the abortion debate -- see below) are talking about BASIC stuff. And of course, discussions of Basic Stuff require the greatest rigor in language and rhetoric, if they're to rise above the level of two chimp troops howling at each other at the border between their territories. So I always appreciate it when someone in the other chimp troop is willing to slow down and make sure we've really isolated the issues and developed a vocabulary in which an actual discussion between the two sides can take place.

To me, the most fundamental obstacle to crafting a solution is the basic difference between the "two ways of knowing" inherent in the two positions. To my chimp troop, the foundation upon which the other side's position is built is simply not something upon which public policy can be based, i.e. stories in a book of fables just don't count as "knowledge." This is why the "Intelligent Design" movement came into being: It is an attempt to fight on the ground defined by my side, i.e. science.

The problem is that our side knows that ID isn't science. It's infuriating to us to have to actually address the material published by ID advocates, but when we do, the result is always the same: there simply isn't one shred of scientific empirical evidence or theoretical basis for ID. Even more infuriating (but very, very telling) is that the result of actually going to the trouble of demonstrating that ID has no basis in scientific thought or practice has no impact on the other side -- which of course demonstrates on a social level that what's being done isn't science. When you irrefutably demonstrate that a scientific thesis is utterly without merit, but its proponents continue to press the idea with undiminished energy, then, well, it ain't science.

As I've written elsewhere (don't you just hate the pomposity of people who are always quoting themselves), the "ID debate" more convincingly than ever demonstrates the fundamentally irreconcilable nature of the religious and scientific world-views, when the former attempts to make assertions that are subject to the latter. That religious fundamentalists continue to call the fact of biological evolution a "dogma" simply demonstrates that they don't have a clue as to what the scientific method actually is. Advocates of Stephen Jay Gould's "separate magisteria" idea get very quiet when this happens, because it so clearly demonstrates that their program of "can't we all just get along" has some serious problems.


The real issue is whether a developing baby is, at any given point, a person. Before it is a person (if such a time exists), then yes, the matter is simply one of the woman choosing what to do with her own body. But as soon as that baby is a person, it becomes a matter of that baby ever being able to make any choices at all. The state has as much jurisdiction to protect that baby as it does to protect any other person within its borders.

Well said. And this core truth is something that highlights how the abortion debate is different from the issue of evolution in public education. At least at this point, the question "what shall we call a human?" isn't subject to resolution through the scientific method.

This, BTW, is why I jumped into the "Animal Rights" thread -- I think the two questions are nearly if not totally identical in terms of moral philosophy and law. I have some fairly detailed thoughts on this question (big surprise), and not enough time to address them this morning, So I'll leave that for another time.

Another toughy. I think that it is good to illegalize certain substances (crack cocaine, for instance), and to illegalize certain actions while under the influence of certain substances (e.g. drunk driving), but Christian scripture doesn't really say anything about any such substance but alcohol, and OK's its use, but forbids overindulgence. Maybe a good route would be to not have any legal penalties per se for posession or use of any substance, but to have sharply increased sentences for any crime commited, or accidental damage or injury done, under the influence, especially that of the harder drugs (as well as for any crime commited in an attempt to obtain such substances). It's a bit softer than I'd like (the hard drugs should be illegal even to posess, IMHO), but as long as there are penalties for damaging actions taken when a person has voluntarily impaired themself in such a fashion, or it the attempt to get a drug to which they are addicted, I could live with it.

Great -- we're basically in agreement here. Let's tell the RNC platform committee -- I think they're available today.

You can touch whatever part of whatever consenting adult you want. *However,* neither you nor the state may prevent me from telling you that that behavior is morally wrong if I find it to be so, or force me to sanction that behavior if I find it objectionable. (And just the same, neither I nor the state can prevent you from telling me where I can put my morals if you don't agree).

Amen, brother -- another matter of agreement. Just as the 1st Ammendment protects me from your religion in terms of state action, it gives you the right to scold me all you want in the public sphere. Interesting how those two things were linked by those gentlemen in Philadelphia. Weren't they clever?

A final note -- insofar as the "which body parts can I touch" question gets over into the matter of gay marriage, we can't avoid a different stinky batch of slithering policy worms, but I'm out of writing time this morning.
 

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I've been thinking a lot about the series of posts here, and how concepts get "crystallized" at certain points of history. At best, the result is a kind of consensus amnesia and at worst a type of full scale incongruence. R.D. Laing may have over stated the dangers of this, but then again...doing the same thing again and again while expecting different results is a good definition of madness. I'm really concerned this applies to Orwell's observations of bad language use as well.

The terms "Left" and "Right" are legacies from the French Revolution. It's why there are bookstores still called, "The Left Bank," and sell political books mainly by socialist authors. But I'm not sure that the terminology really serves our interest anymore in that it limits our choices and understanding to an "either/or" dichotomy. Honestly, I don't think there are very many people that occupy either position completely.

The media here in the US is a good example of this. Given that most "journalists" went to college, they socially occupy a position deemed left of center when it comes to social issues. You'll find more more people in the media in favor of gay marriage than people in small towns of the corn-belt, for example. But you'll also find that these same "left wing" media people are actually slightly more fiscally conservative than the small town populations as well. Granted, this is a generalization, but it's one that's important in that it illustrates how limiting the possibilities are.

If I invoke "Revolution" today, don't most of you immediately think "coup-de-tat"? But didn't this term come to us via Copernicus? See what I mean?

What I'm trying to come to is a way of introducing what Stokely Carmichael said about definition. I'm relying on memory here, but it was something like, "people who define are masters."

I suspect Greg's the only other reader here who has read The Patriot Act in its entirety. What's of great concern to me here is the way that "terrorism" has been redefined. The significance, of course, has to do with the arrests of protesters in St. Paul who've been charged with this crime.
 

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I find that I’m writing way more about politics here on the Orbiter forum than is probably good for me or that anyone else wants to see. So I may try to cut back – in the interest of better uses of my time, and to try to preserve what tattered shreds of reputation I may still possess here. Before I do, though, I want to commit to writing some thoughts that have been going through my head in light of the recent discussions and comments here. The subject is what I call “the missing firebreak,” and relates to this:
The terms "Left" and "Right" are legacies from the French Revolution. It's why there are bookstores still called, "The Left Bank," and sell political books mainly by socialist authors. But I'm not sure that the terminology really serves our interest anymore in that it limits our choices and understanding to an "either/or" dichotomy. Honestly, I don't think there are very many people that occupy either position completely.
This is a thought one encounters very often – and almost always from people on the left. (In fact, I can’t ever remember hearing it from someone on the right.) I think it’s wrong, and here’s why:

There’s a little game I play with friends of mine who consider themselves moderate Democrats. I call it “mainstream or extreme.” I’ll name a journalist or an author or a media outlet, and ask whether their opinion is that it’s “mainstream or extreme.” One that I have particular fun with is Amy Goodman’s radio show, Democracy Now. If you’re not familiar with it, it’s broadcast every day on the Pacifica network. Most moderate Democrats, when asked the simple question, “Is Democracy Now mainstream or extreme?” will answer “extreme.”

It would be very hard not to agree with them. Goodman’s a communist, the daughter of communists. Regular guests on her show include people like Noam Chomsky. The program is a forum for every far-left critic of capitalism and America one can imagine, from Ward Churchill to Naomi Klein. People who are regularly lauded as heroic include Hugo Chavez, Fidel Castro and Yassir Arafat. One of the show’s favorite causes is “Mumiya Abu Jamal” the convicted murderer of a policeman. On Democracy Now every friend of Israel is an Islamophobic imperialist, and every enemy of America is a freedom-fighter.

The next question I’ll ask my moderate Democrat friends will be, “Which is more extreme, Fox or Democracy Now?” The answer is almost always, “Democracy Now.”

It’s a trap. Because the day I ask that question, I’ll have listened to Goodman’s show, and her guest will have been someone like Seymour Hersch or Bob Woodward or Bill Moyers or some other member in good standing of the non-radical left.

Now, the point is this: a program as far right as Goodman’s is far left would be off limits to any figure who hoped to participate in the mainstream of American cultural or political life. The equivalent would be as if someone like William F. Buckley Jr. or P.J. O’Rourke had appeared on a program that regularly featured interviews with people like David Duke and had special reports on the virtues of Holocaust deniers, and lionized Hitler.

This illustrates what I call “the missing firebreak on the left.” Ideas I hear expressed by “non-mainstream” figures on Democracy Now are by and large more radical than those advocated by those in the “mainstream left” like Nancy Pelosi or Howard Dean in the political sphere. But what exists on the left that I do not see on the right (outside of religious issues) is an unbroken spectrum from the moderate to the extreme left. In fact, Barak Obama’s own political biography illustrates this. Saul Allinsky was a formative influence on Obama, as he was on Hillary Clinton. The “community organizing” group Obama worked for before he launched his political career was explicitly based on Allinsky’s writings and was founded by Allinsky’s disciples. Allinsky was an open and unrepentant Marxist. Obama’s connection with this group would be the equivalent of a Republican presidential candidate in his 40s having been a member of the KKK in his 20s – something that would act as a complete disqualifier from public life in America.

Let me cite just one other seemingly minor illustration of this phenomenon. The fascinating and repulsive figure, Roy Cohen, is a character in the wonderful play, Angels in America. Cohen’s descent and death from AIDS is a plot element in the play. As he lies dying in the hospital, he is visited by the ghost of Ethel Rosenberg. Rosenberg is portrayed as an angelic martyr. The truth, of course, is that, although Cohen was a nasty human being, Ethyl and her husband, who were convicted and sentenced to death as spies who passed nuclear weapons secrets to the Soviet Union because they were themselves communists, were guilty of treason. Angels in America is just the latest of many, many works of art and non-fiction that have portrayed the Rosenbergs as martyrs.

This is a key part of the utterly one-sided view of the 1950s “communist witch hunt” that is one of the founding elements of the identity of the left in America – from the mainstream to the extreme. The number of films portraying Hollywood’s heroic stand against the “communist blacklist” is too great to catalog, and every few years a new one is made. But the problem is that in the 1950s Hollywood was in fact full of communists. The story of Elia Kazan, who was himself ostracized and effectively blackballed in Hollywood, is quite instructive. He truthfully testified that there were communists working in Hollywood, and that they were working to influence how communism and the Soviet Union were portrayed in films. For this, he was branded by the leading culture workers in America as a traitor. When, as an old man, he was finally awarded an Oscar for lifetime achievement, he was booed as he went onto the stage to accept it.

What do these two items signify? They illustrate that the left in America has never made a clean break with Marxism. In the 1930s, being an open Marxist was all but mandatory if one was a “progressive” intellectual or artist in Europe and America. A huge portion of those who created the products of our culture turned a blind eye to the increasing evidence that leaked out of Stalin’s Russia that in fact the Soviet Union was a totalitarian tyranny. It is difficult today for many to understand the context in which The Road to Serfdom was written. At the time – the early 1940s – to be well educated and to work as an intellectual or an artist in the West was to be a Marxist. Very few of the people who fell prey to these seductive ideas ever really made a full, complete and public disavowal of them.

When the “witch hunt” began – and it really only lasted a very short time – the left hunkered down. It quickly blew over. And then the 1960s were here and it was smooth sailing. Herbert Marcuse gave Western intellectuals permission to put a slight “post modern” gloss on core Marxist theories, and what he called “the long march through the institutions” began – i.e. the process of getting a new generation of leftist intellectuals into influential positions in academia, media and the arts.

So what? One of the most common responses to these ideas I encounter from my moderate leftist friends is that, well, yes, there may be radical left-leaning people in academia, but they really don’t have that much influence on society at large. Bullsh*t. You don’t end up in a position of influence in our society if you don’t pass through a university. And the vast majority of people who go to university don’t end up as critical thinkers who spend a lot of time, both while they’re in university and later, engaging in scholarship and analysis of political philosophy. Instead, they absorb views from the professors to whom they are exposed, largely in an unconscious and unreflective way. Now, do these views have a great influence on people who go to university and become engineers or business people? No. But then, those people also don’t take very many history or sociology or political science classes, either. In fact, they take the minimum number of classes in such subjects that they can, pay as little attention in those classes as they can, and forget what little they learned despite their inattention as soon as possible.

People who end up working as journalists and filmmakers and movie producers, though – that’s a different story. The unrepentant Marxism (candy-coated with a post-modern gloss) to which they are exposed in university has a huge impact on their world view. Are the reporters and anchorpeople and commentators you see on the cable news networks deep thinkers about political philosophy? Do they spend a lot of their time studying history? No. But they do very much have political views that influence what and how they report. Where do those views come from?

Now let me be clear: I don’t think there’s any kind active conspiracy to coordinate the leftist views expressed in popular culture. There doesn’t have to be. When a critical mass of people in these fields share common – often unconscious – views, a natural and organic web of mutually supporting images and words take shape without the need for any active coordination. So the images of the evil capitalist or dangerous, dishonorable militarist general one sees in movies echoes the steady, subtle slanting of the news against capitalism and the military. And those subtly slanted news stories and editorials make the images in movies and fiction seem all the more real and compelling. This process went on so long that when a single media outlet – Fox – was established that didn’t conform to this organically whole leftist world-view, it was jarring and seemed like IT was the only voice that was singing a song in a ideological key. Everything else made sense, and fit together. Fox was the only one in the choir not carrying the tune.

For the record, I never, ever watch Fox news, nor do I ever, ever listen to “right wing talk radio.” I can honestly say that I’ve never heard Rush Limbaugh’s voice. My exposure to what would be called “right wing” material is all in text and all on the web. I don’t know if this makes any difference but, again, for the record, I’m sure Fox and the radio talkers are definitely ideologically motivated.

My point is that I’m not denying that there’s an ideological slant to the ‘right wing” media. It’s not even that there’s a left-wing slant to the rest of the mainstream media. I simply can’t have any respect for anyone who denies the latter proposition. No, my point is that the slant on the left is deeper and reaches into a far more dangerous foundation than what seems to animate the ideology on the right. On the right, with the exception of matters of religion in America, there is a firebreak. Racism is openly and completely rejected by the mainstream right, and there’s a void between the “right-most” intellectuals and writers on the right and people who are more extreme and do hold racist and genuinely fascist views. This void, this firebreak, doesn’t exist on the left. There’s a smooth and unbroken spectrum on the left from the center all the way to the most open and hard-core revolutionary Marxists. The absence of that firebreak has real effects on our public life, both in our culture and in our politics.

EDIT -- Oh, and "The Left Bank" bookstores explicitly refer to the "left bank" of the Seine in Paris, a traditional bohemian district. The other part is just an ironic )and probably intended) bit of a joke.
 
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dougkeenan

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Now, do these views have a great influence on people who go to university and become engineers or business people? No. But then, those people also don’t take very many history or sociology or political science classes, either. In fact, they take the minimum number of classes in such subjects that they can, pay as little attention in those classes as they can, and forget what little they learned despite their inattention as soon as possible.

"In fact" as an engineer who took extra humanities classes (maybe we just had good ones) I falsify your generalization.

Business grads? Maybe. We all know how they are.
 

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"In fact" as an engineer who took extra humanities classes (maybe we just had good ones) I falsify your generalization.

Business grads? Maybe. We all know how they are.

Sorry -- terrible generalization on my part. Would it be accurate if I had written "most"?
 

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I knew I was going to be taken to task on that last post, but hadn't predicted in this way.

Greg, you must have read The Communist Manifesto, and I'd be surprised if you haven't read Das Capital as well. What in our society really resembles anything from either of these works? And please point to me where there's ever been a real communist government. Maoist China seems to be the closest, but even that has a distinct Chinese flavor. All others have gone straight to totalitarianism with roots in socialism, and we can see how well those worked.

Marxists, in any current context, seem to be so out of touch today as to be laughable. I actually got hit on by an extremely physically attractive young Marxist back around 1990. Honestly, she was so pretty I had to contemplate what to do about her interest. But when the "lumpenproletariat," and the "bourgeoisie" rolled out of her mouth, I had to bite my lip to keep from laughing. When she said the Marxists needed the imagination from Anarchists like me, it was all over. Mr. Happy may have had a lot of pull on me in those days, but I've always had a bit more self-respect than that.

Sure a lot of academic theory draws from Marxism, either directly, or I would posit, mostly indirectly as French School post-structuralism gained popularity. But those chaps and gals were nuts. So nuts, that one of the titles of post-structuralism is "anti-humanism." Take your pick: Derrida, Kristeva, Lacan, or Foucault - the "free-play of the signifier" is nothing more than "intellectual master:censored:." At worst, it's brought us unbridled cultural relativism.

But Marxist theory, in its original context was a great place to go in terms of looking at the bigger picture. A close reading of a text often cannot give you background information in which the text arose. You need a grounding in history, and a good dose of historical politics helps a lot as well. Often we need the back-story for context, especially if the text comes from a cultural or historical location in which we have no previous knowledge or understanding.

Personally, it's the one thing I can thank Dubya for, at least in terms of influence in US universities. Anti-humanism has been going the way of the dinosaur since he took office, because arguing aesthetics when politics really matters is unethical.

Still, I'm sure we'll not see eye-to-eye on this issue, but I still think that the Left/Right dichotomy doesn't really address the nuances that constitute the current political animal. The media embodies this as well. Is Dan Rather really left of center? Barbara Walters?

Honestly Greg, some of your own political positions seem left of center as well, but I'm sure you reject that particular label. Specifically your position on the 1st Amendment, substance use, and sexuality I don't think would go over well with a lot of Republicans, or Democrats either for that matter.

Edit: I forgot to say how much I appreciated your last post, Greg, though it did ruffle my feathers a bit.
 

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Sorry -- terrible generalization on my part. Would it be accurate if I had written "most"?
Answering in Fair Witness style, I have no way of knowing without asking them all. Some, many, most, any of those could be true, especially with the business people skewing the numbers. I understand your point and do appreciate the essay. Probably just a reflexive defense of my profession coming from too many moon hoax arguments.
 

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I knew I was going to be taken to task on that last post, but hadn't predicted in this way.

ahh, the old "there never really has been REAL socialism," "actually, there's some really profound stuff in Marx" and "pomos were so loony no one listened to them" lines. Gawdamighty, I could be here all night ... but I'm not going to do it ... tonight, anyway ...
 

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I find that I’m writing way more about politics here on the Orbiter forum than is probably good for me or that anyone else wants to see.

What I find interesting is that you respond to those who are against you and you ignore those whose might be supporting you - is that another Jedi mind trick?
 

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What I find interesting is that you respond to those who are against you and you ignore those whose might be supporting you - is that another Jedi mind trick?

Not much to say to people you agree with.

"I think this..."
"I agree."
"OK."
 

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Socialism, sure - communism, not so sure.

Communism is basically an economic scheme, and utterly dependent on the global success of capitalism. Yes, I've read the stuff. Profound? Not really, and reeks of the economic history of the time it was written. Read some Dickens and you'll get an idea of what common people were going through.

Actually, the Manifesto reads a lot like the Quran in that the last of it seems like a rush job with an impending publisher deadline.

It still holds way too much importance for current economic models.

But threatening? As a philosophy, it seems a bit idealistic, and doesn't begin to foresee socio-economic situations in a global economy.

I think Jihadism is far more threatening to our democracy than this quaint old system.
 

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Regarding my thesis about the "missing firebreak" on the left:

http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/0...-codepink-members-in-independent-focus-group/

Now, many will have to hold their noses to visit the link, since it is Fox. Perhaps you should check your anti-virus software before you do, just in case. But I offer this as a little illustration of what I was talking about -- that there's a general lack of judgment on the moderate left about the more radical ranks "behind" them. Ideas bubble up from that radical background constantly and make their way into the mainstream without criticism of the core ideological foundation upon which they are based.

Another example of this in popular culture is the figure of Che Guevarra. The man was a murdering monster, but you wouldn't know it to walk around the campuses of America's colleges. "What's the harm in an image on a t-shirt?" I can hear my mild friends on the moderate left asking. Just ask yourself what your reaction would be if members of the Young Republicans walked around the campus with t-shirts sporting the image of Adolf Hitler.

Socialism, sure - communism, not so sure.

I'm not sure if I fully get your meaning here, but if you're saying that socialism is something to be tolerated while communism isn't, that is a looong and detailed discussion -- and one I maintain the left in America avoids as much as possible.

Beyond this, and to get to the heart of the matter, it very difficult for me to know how to continue a discussion on this subject without knowing what background you have. Have you read -- as opposed to read about -- Hayek?

The reason I ask is because the deep critique of socialism isn't necessarily what you think. While it is completely possible to build a devastating critique of socialism based entirely on moral philosophical principles, there is another and more empirically-grounded view. I'm flexible -- I'll go either way -- but I hesitate to start down that road simply because it is so long. "Progressive" thought in the West has traveled so far down a wrong road since the French Revolution, "the road to serfdom" as Hayek so aptly named it, that it takes a lot of work to retrace the steps back in a conscious way. So many of the mistaken assumptions upon which socialism is premised have become unconscious elements of thought in the world today that the project of identifying them is like a kind of psychic surgery. It can be painful, and the fundamental assumptions of socialist thinking have become so entwined into other areas of our culture that one must be careful at each step not to do violence to things that had value before the infection began.

Communism is basically an economic scheme, and utterly dependent on the global success of capitalism. Yes, I've read the stuff. Profound? Not really, and reeks of the economic history of the time it was written. Read some Dickens and you'll get an idea of what common people were going through.

Unfortunately, the power of Marx lies in the adaptability of his ideas. It is very much like the HIV virus -- highly mutable and adaptable, and one that takes advantage of basic structures in the organism upon which it preys, and which it ultimately kills -- the human mind.

Yes, once one's mind has been cleared of 150 years of layer after layer of filters that Marxism has created in our thinking, the grounding of his theories in a very specific time and place -- one transitory period in the story of one society's progress through one phase of capitalist development -- can be seen for what it is. But a host of brilliant people have worked -- and continue to work today -- to adapt the fundamental bases of Marxism, class theory, the labor theory of value and the primacy of economic power relations to all others in society, to changing conditions. I know you maintain that its day has passed, but French "theory" and postmodernism was just one modern guise of these basic ideas. They haven't died -- they're still vital and operating in our culture today.

Actually, the Manifesto reads a lot like the Quran in that the last of it seems like a rush job with an impending publisher deadline.

It still holds way too much importance for current economic models.

But threatening? As a philosophy, it seems a bit idealistic, and doesn't begin to foresee socio-economic situations in a global economy.

This position is one that I combat all the time, because I see it as a kind of masking, a way of diverting attention from discussion of the way in which the fundamental premises of Marxism continue to animate a huge portion of our culture's consideration of itself. If you'd like, I could quote chapter and verse from the Marxist scriptures to make the case that the basic concepts upon which Marxism is premised continue to be relevant and continue to provide a solid guide to policy today on even the moderate left. But if you want to see a masters of this at work, just read Chomsky or Zinn.

And don't tell me that Chomsky and Zinn aren't influential. They are.

I think Jihadism is far more threatening to our democracy than this quaint old system.

About that, we are in complete agreement, and for the reasons I detailed here.
 

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UPDATE, 9/11/2008: Out looking for that missing firebreak this morning, I came across this item in the mainstream, respected Washington Post:

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/..._beliefs_welcome_unless_the/all_comments.html

For those who think I'm seeing things (such as "reds under the bed" -- or alive and well in academia) I think it would be well worthwhile to 1) read this item, 2) read the comments left by readers and 3) reflect on whether a piece skewed this far -- but in the other direction -- could have gotten anywhere close to the pages of the WaPo.

Those who bemoan the birth of Fox might consider that it probably never would have happened if the mainstream media hadn't gotten to a condition like this.
 
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