Gun control discussion

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GregBurch: The USA have the highest number of homicides by firearms per 100,000 citizens in the world, with 3.72. Twice as high as Italy. Six times higher as Switzerland. Germany has only 0.22.

It's interesting that you make this assertion, since it's not true:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir-crime-murders-with-firearms

or, interestingly, you can look at this table:

http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvinco.html

... which uses some earlier statistics to rate the US somewhat lower on the list/

Now, it's true that the US is far higher than our oh-so-civilized brethren in Europe. What I find interesting is the comparison of gun homicide rates to gun OWNERSHIP rates. There are countries with very high gun ownership rates (viz, Finland, Israel, New Zealand) that have far lower gun homicide rates. To me, the very interesting question is why?

Similar ratios on unintentional deaths by firearms. Do you think, this can only be explained by drug related crimes? Can somebody look for similar statistics for drug addicts per n people? I don't find something unbiased with my english skills.

I was being a little oversimplistic, but the real explanation is cultural. There are culturally identifiable segments of the US population that have very high rates of gun ownership and relatively low levels of gun violence -- basically down with our superior European brothers.

I leave the question of what cultural factors might explain the difference in gun crime rates across relatively similar levels of gun ownership for you to ponder.

... and let me add that I don't think it's the drug USERS who are the main perpetrators of violence. It's people involved in the illegal drug business. Just like it was in the 1920s when a different drug was illegal in the US.
 
Regardless of whether gun laws exist, or not or to the extent of the laws. People will always get guns period! Would a criminal who wanted to commit a gun-crime say: "d'oh! law says I can't get a gun, oh well, time to apply to Harvard"? NO, they would still find a way to get a gun. It's like cellphones in school. They're banned during the day for all intents and purposes, but do kids just put them in their lockers at the beginning of the day? No.

Whether or not gun controls exist and such, people will always violate the laws regardless of what is and isn't law. So given that, would you rather have a society where the law-abiders can't carry guns and can't defend themselves when someone who DOES have a gun decides to go crazy. Or would you rather have a chance that someone who is a law-abider has a gun and can defend themselves and other people?

"The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve, nor will he ever receive either."~Ben Franklin
 
OK, 8.3% of the population above 12 years in the US are illcit drug users.

Lets ask the central European about the German figure
http://www.emcdda.europa.eu/

As summary of selected drugs from 15-64 years: 2.9%

Greg: The ratios between Germany and US are still about the same in both statistics you posted. Which I find important as this means similar way of counting the data.
 
Clearly a topic which polarises opinion, and the trouble is both sides of the argument have, to myself at least, good points.

Someone mentioned that we should not try and police americans on their own law, and I fully agree. I don't see anything wrong, however, with people from outside the society in question arguing that a certain law may not be a wise one. It isn't an order for the law to be changed, its just an opportunity to look at the points against it, as well as examing your own points in support of it.

Having grown up in Britain, we've never had a particularly positive outlook on guns. They're something we never (if we're lucky) see in everyday life and one that most of us would never wish to. I remember recently I just got off the train on the way to college, and saw police officers all over the place carrying MP5's, and I wanted to get as far away as possible from them. When you aren't used to them, you really feel the potential of harm they carry. I notice that a few americans see guns as objects with which to defend themselves, whereas when I look at one, I only see something which is designed to kill another human. Realise here that I'm not differentiating between which is the correct initial viewpoint to have, just that there is clearly a big difference. I can completely understand why a parent, or anyone with a desire to protect others, would want to carry a gun to protect those around them from potential harm, but who differentiates between those that wish to protect and those that wish to harm when these guns are sold? Someone remarked earlier that it is easier to kill someone with a light pull on a trigger, than to stab someone with a knife, and I can only agree with that.

As to the argument about the Church shootings - first of all let me say that its fantastic to hear that your brother, and that the people in that church, left with their lives. The two girls who were shot outside, my thoughts go to their families. What struck me though was this - a man had a machine gun with 1000 rounds. Yes, thankfully someone within that Church had something with which to stop him, but would he have been able to get hold of such firepower if guns were illegal in the first place? Of course, its by no means a certainty that he would have been prevented from doing so, but I can only imagine that the chances would be decreased. That is the thought that stays with me in relation to guns - even if 99% of those with guns wish to use them for good, the other 1% can do a whole lot of damage still.

Someone else mentioned how Britain is doing having banned guns - well, yes, we are currently going through a period where knife crime, in London in particular, is causing a lot of deaths, of primarily teenagers. Guns are around, and in the wrong hands, but the fact that they are illegal surely makes it harder for their trade. Knives are awful, agreed. However, they are short range, and to kill with them takes a lot more effort than with a gun, as mentioned before. I know which one I'd rather someone have if they were chasing me.

If there weren't people in the world that want to fatally harm others for no real reason, then I couldn't care less who owned one. The trouble is, though, there are people like that, and as such it would make me feel incredibly uneasy that anyone would be able to easily get one.
 
OK, 8.3% of the population above 12 years in the US are illcit drug users.

Lets ask the central European about the German figure
http://www.emcdda.europa.eu/

As summary of selected drugs from 15-64 years: 2.9%

Greg: The ratios between Germany and US are still about the same in both statistics you posted. Which I find important as this means similar way of counting the data.

Let me posit that the primary causal factor involved in the differences isn't the presence or absence of guns. The cases of Finland and New Zealand and the like show this is the case. The difference is culture, pure and simple.

The fact is that -- taking very unprepresentative cases like the church shooting or other "shooting sprees" (which are VERY rare and over-reported) out of the picture -- the vast majority of gun crime in the US is committed by and ON certain very identifiable segments of the society. This is something that can't be discussed, though.

As for the point about drugs, my (fairly rhetorical, not strictly statistical) point is that a very large portion of violent crime in the US is committed by people in the drug business in one way or another.
 
If there weren't people in the world that want to fatally harm others for no real reason, then I couldn't care less who owned one. The trouble is, though, there are people like that, and as such it would make me feel incredibly uneasy that anyone would be able to easily get one.

Your post very much illustrates my point about the difference in attitudes on either side fo the Atlantic. Back when I was doing a lot of work at Lloyds, I spent a LOT of time in the UK, and became very familiar with the general attitude you express. I often encountered Brits who had an image of the US as one big, constant running gun battle.

On the flip side, I live in one of the most heavily armed cities in the world. I don't feel threatened by it. At all.

Go figure ....
 
Wow, guys, when I posted back on the first page, I immediately had "Poster's Regret" thinking I was inadverdantly starting a flamewar. Seems it was just the beginning!

I agree with Greg that the existence of gun control has little effect on the crime rate compared to cultural differences.

I am, to say the least, an activist on this issue, and my circle of friends consists of many gun owners who are are also active in defending this particular right. Many of them argue that the banning of guns in Britain caused the increase in overall violent crime there, but I think that is only part of the story. You have to factor in the change in attitude towards self-defense (okay, "defence"!) and other recent cultural changes forced by the political powers-that-be. From what I've read, Britain is now a giant playground for criminals. Strict gun control makes this worse, but is not the only cause.

Another good example is Japan. In Japan guns are all but outlawed, and yet the crime rate is low. Why? Because of Japan's culture, for starters; Japan has a long history which is quite different from that of the USA or Britain, with a different mindset. Add to that something I heard from a friend who lived there for several years: the police are just corrupt enough to allow the yakuza to police the streets.

(Interesting to note that Japan's current constitution was practically written by Douglas McArthur, a self-important character if ever there was one, who decided to leave out any protection for the right to bear arms.)

@Simponpro: the idea that a lightly armed and unorganized militia cannot make life miserable for a modern army is shown to be false by the events in Iraq, where a bunch of nobodies with next to no training have organized themselves and managed to make trouble for 5 years and running.

But more importantly, the presence of weapons in citizens' hands tends to make those citzens more independent-minded even in peace, and that's a good thing.
 
Wow, guys, when I posted back on the first page, I immediately had "Poster's Regret" thinking I was inadverdantly starting a flamewar. Seems it was just the beginning!

You feel that way?! I would like to know who elevated a comment in another thread, to begin this thread ... without discussing it with the originating author. I certainly did not begin this thread.

Perhaps someone on this board has a particular agenda, and does not have the chutzpah to be honest about it.


But more importantly, the presence of weapons in citizens' hands tends to make those citzens more independent-minded even in peace, and that's a good thing.

Sorry, my friend. Do you really believe this piece of self-serving tripe? It is a total crock, semantically the same as suggesting you are not a man if you are not packing iron.

Weaponry has no place in the equation of indenpendent-mindedness. If that were so ... explain Ghandi.
 
LOL, we ain't at the level of M6...yet :worried look:

It's simple, who would a criminal more readily attack? Someone who they know is unarmed, or someone who might just be one of the law-abiders who lawfully and responsibly owns a gun?
 
Back when Chrétien was PM, Ashcroft chewed out the Foreign Minister for all the "BC bud" being smuggled into the States.

The Foreign Minister (whose name escapes me, sorry neighbors) snapped back, "better our pot than your guns."

The grass is always greener...
 
I don't think its that simple at all. Firstly, while someone might have the determination to find and buy a gun even where they are banned, they have to put in a lot more effort, and likely spend a lot more, to acquire it. I'd bet all burglars in the UK wouldn't mind having a gun either you know, but I'd hazard a guess that the vast VAST majority don't. Why's that? Because you can't just get them from shops. It takes connections, it takes a lot of money, and involves a lot of risk. I don't see the mobile phone analogy at all, mobiles are freely sold outside school and kids will therefore likely own them anyway, being caught with one doesn't lead to arrest, using one never leads to serious injury.

As to the criminal question - yes, the attacker would choose the unarmed person. What worries me is, if the unarmed person in question either just doesn't wish to buy a gun because they don't like the thought of killing someone, or maybe just plain doesn't have the money (I assume they aren't cheap), then the criminal has quite an easy means of intimidating them, legally acquired. Its a big disadvantage to have, purely because of a moral decision privately made, or an economic one.
 
This thread has been created by moving 12 off-topic posts from another thread.
This means StarLost did NOT create this thread, he merely had the first post that was moved. I am sorry you had to take the blame for :sorry:

This was done, so the other thread would not get spammed (despite beeing asked to stop several times) and this discussion could go on.

Well, it did go on. Unfortunately not in the desired manner.

Thread locked, come back later...
 
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