Electric sports car goes on show

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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7524475.stm

Nice looking car, for £100K it should be.

Am I hearing right, he says it charges from three-phase? Last time I looked (in the UK), thats 440V AC, and dosen't normally reach domestic households.
Maybe he means some form of three-phase normal consumer supply(220V in the UK). Presumably you get a charger when you buy the car. I got one for my digital camera, and that was a lot cheaper;)

I hadn't heard of heard of Lithium-Titinate:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-titanate_battery

N.
 
I wouldn't want to drive a car without conventional brakes...
 
Hub motors have traditionally been frowned upon because they reduce ride quality and grip on rough surfaces by increasing the unsprung weight, so it is a surprise to see them on a sports car.

RE charging, the vid says it can be "fast charged" from three phase or charged overnight from single phase. Three phase is fairly common here (mostly driven by air conditioning demands) so if you already had the three phase meters and switchboard in your home it would be fairly trivial to install a three phase outlet for charging the car.

I wouldn't want to drive a car without conventional brakes...
Ever ridden in a lift? Almost all modern lifts use regenerative braking. Depending on the lift controls, the power is either dissipated in resistor banks or put back into the grid. It is very reliable and the most likely point of failure would be the battery charging circuit. If a fail-over was provided to dissipate the power into a resistor bank, I would say that it would be at least as reliable as a traditional hydraulic disc brake system. There is very little else in the system that could fail.
 
Ever ridden in a lift? Almost all modern lifts use regenerative braking. Depending on the lift controls, the power is either dissipated in resistor banks or put back into the grid. It is very reliable and the most likely point of failure would be the battery charging circuit. If a fail-over was provided to dissipate the power into a resistor bank, I would say that it would be at least as reliable as a traditional hydraulic disc brake system. There is very little else in the system that could fail.

You forget one aspect: A lift normally brakes slowly - except in emergency. Then a lift uses mechanic systems for stopping quickly.

The same with a car and especially a sports car: You can never brake fast enough. A few cm/s² more can be the difference between miss and crash.
 
You forget one aspect: A lift normally brakes slowly - except in emergency. Then a lift uses mechanic systems for stopping quickly.
Well, braking speed is just a matter of designing the capacity of the motor and the associated energy dissipation system (resistors, charger, etc) correctly. If that car goes from 0-100km/h in 4sec, it should brake in about the same time (eg, Porsche 911 brakes from 120-0km/h in 4s) so the designed-in capacity for braking will be the same as required for accelerating.

And yes, I know that lifts have a rope brake as an emergency backup. I can ask the lift engineer at work for some statistics but I can't think of a case of where the rope brake had been used for motor or regen failure. Typical use id because of either gearbox failure, rope failure or governor failure not (and you can eliminate gearbox failure in the better lifts because they use direct drive). That's not to say it won't happen, though ;)

I still maintain that it would be as reliable as conventional hydraulic brakes given that these can suffer from their own brand of failures - leaks, air bubbles, etc. Like lifts, conventional cars have a backup for this - the parking brake. I expect that the Lightning GT would also have a parking brake in its conventional form.
 
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I didn't think you could use regenerative brakes to come to a complete stop, just slow down. Your breaking force is proportional to the induced voltage which is proportional to rpm.
 
I didn't think you could use regenerative brakes to come to a complete stop, just slow down. Your breaking force is proportional to the induced voltage which is proportional to rpm.

Exactly. It is very effective for high speeds OR when you need to slow down a bit over a longer slopes. But it can't dissipate all energy and the effect is not like the acceleration of the electric motor at all - the motor generates the same torque during acceleration all the time, during regenerative braking the torque is proportional to the speed.

You can invert the power to let the motors produce extra torque against the current direction of travel, but this is

a) not regenerative
b) not healthy for any electric engine
c) also a pretty difficult job for a power controller.

Also, you have to remember one important aspect: What will the car do, when parked? The wheels are independent, so unless you want to roll around or have to use energy against this, you will need some sort of mechanic friction brake. Also the brake should work regardless on the power state of the vessel. When the power inside the car fails, you neither want to stop abruptly by deploying automatic brakes, nor do you want to roll around until the regenerative braking by the engines brought you to a stop.
 
I'm an all-electric car enthusiast (read maniacal zealot) and have been following this as much as the little press up to now has allowed. It's a beautiful machine and a different approach from the two main US contenders to get a real, practical all-electric on the road in a short time period, Tesla and Aptera. Which is the exciting thing about the time we're in now -- there are lots of entrepreneurs expending lots of energy on the quest to build and sell practical all electric cars.

With any luck, we should be less than five years from the point where modestly priced all-electrics are available that satisfy the automotive needs and desires of a huge portion of the market.

Now if we can only get folks to wake up and see that we could be almost as close to having a safe, clean and most importantly, independent means of generating electricity ...
 
I'm sure a 100k£ car has the necessary equipment to do an emergency stop. :)

But I can't hear anybody talking about the cost of battery life. My one-G work includes electric forklift maintenance, and battery replacement is by far the most expensive part of running those things.
I hope those Lithium-Titinate batteries last more then a few years.;)
 
But I can't hear anybody talking about the cost of battery life.

I think the economic line regarding battery life was crossed in the US when gasoline went above $4/gallon. It'll only get better for electrics from here on out.

What WOULD be helpful would be the development of some electrical and mechanical standards for auto power batteries. I have in mind some kind of mechanical packaging standards (i.e. standard sizes) and associated electrical systems standards that would make it easier to switch batteries as the technology improves.

At this early stage, that, of course, would require some kind of government regulatory action that actually worked to ENCOURAGE innovation and getting off the oil tit.
:rofl:
 
ISO standard for car battery modules? :lol:
 
RE charging, the vid says it can be "fast charged" from three phase or charged overnight from single phase. Three phase is fairly common here (mostly driven by air conditioning demands) so if you already had the three phase meters and switchboard in your home it would be fairly trivial to install a three phase outlet for charging the car.

Three phase is common in Australia? I mean in a domestic environment? Is this 110AC 3-phase into your own dwelling?

I can see the export potential for this car, I'm stuck with old fashioned single phase!

N.
 
You can invert the power to let the motors produce extra torque against the current direction of travel, but this is

a) not regenerative
b) not healthy for any electric engine
c) also a pretty difficult job for a power controller.
a) True, but regenerative braking can be used down to very slow speeds after which active braking can be applied.

b) Squirrel cage induction motors have a real problem operating in the negative slip region because all power input into the motor (shaft power and power input to the stator) needs to be dissipated as heat in the rotor. For wound rotor induction motors or permanent magnet synchronous motors this is perfectly healthy. In the case of a wound rotor induction motor it is OK because the energy from the rotor can be extracted and fed back to the vehicle. In a permanent magnet synchronous motor there is no current in the rotor. The losses are reduced to the same as the normal operating losses - resistive loss in the motor windings and non-linear losses in the drive electronics. I'm not sure what type of motor the Lightning GT uses but when I was involved with the EV lab at Uni of Sydney permanent magnet synchronous motors were the favoured option.

c) Not too difficult for modern high speed PWM IGBT drive controllers.

Harking back to the lift example, they typically use permanent magnet synchronous motors and regen brake down to very low speeds and brake to a complete stop by applying negative slip to the stator. The mechanical brakes are only applied once the machine has come to a complete stop.

Also, on a number of occasions we have used this technique to slow down squirrel cage motors quickly so they can then be powered up in the opposite direction (typical application is a supply air fan that needs to be reversed to operate as a smoke exhaust fan). Because this only happens infrequently the heat in the rotor has not been an issue.


ISO standard for car battery modules? :lol:
That is not as silly as it first sounds. ;)

Three phase is common in Australia? I mean in a domestic environment? Is this 110AC 3-phase into your own dwelling?

I can see the export potential for this car, I'm stuck with old fashioned single phase!

N.
"Not uncommon" is probably a better term. At a guess, only 5-10% of domestic premises would have existing three phase connections. For those that don't already have it, it is readily available because all the low network is run in three phase.

We operate on 240V single phase, 415V three phase here. Officially it changed to 230/400V in line with Europe a few years ago but the actual voltages have not changed, they just increased the tolerances from 240/415V +/- 6% to 230/400V +10% -6%.

I can't see any technical reason why three phase would be less available in the UK, it probably is just a question of demand. Because we have high cooling requirements that are typically met by air conditioning there is a reasonable demand for three phase power. In the UK (correct me if I am wrong) there would be less cooling demand and more heating demand, with the heating demands being met by other energy sources (natural gas, heating oil, etc).
 
"Not uncommon" is probably a better term. At a guess, only 5-10% of domestic premises would have existing three phase connections. For those that don't already have it, it is readily available because all the low network is run in three phase.

We operate on 240V single phase, 415V three phase here. Officially it changed to 230/400V in line with Europe a few years ago but the actual voltages have not changed, they just increased the tolerances from 240/415V +/- 6% to 230/400V +10% -6%.

I can't see any technical reason why three phase would be less available in the UK, it probably is just a question of demand. Because we have high cooling requirements that are typically met by air conditioning there is a reasonable demand for three phase power. In the UK (correct me if I am wrong) there would be less cooling demand and more heating demand, with the heating demands being met by other energy sources (natural gas, heating oil, etc).

Thats most interesting, I had no idea 3-phase was used outside of an industrial site(or an electrical suppliers sub-station) anywhere in the world. Guess it shows something about parochial thinking(if we haven't got it, nobody has!).

Youre probably right about the air-con, most houses in the UK wouldn't have it. However,thinking about it, I suppose most large offices and shopping centres probably would.

I don't know how my power supplier would respond to a request for a 3-phase supply to my dwelling. As I'm in a second floor flat, can't see it getting very far!

Oh, well that saved me a £100K on the car...

Thanks, N.
 
Bump.

I happened across something that might be of interest to those following this thread - a conversion of a Mini into a four wheel drive hybrid-electric using hub motors:
http://www.pmlflightlink.com/pdfs/mini_qed1.pdf

Some technical information here:
http://www.pmlflightlink.com/pdfs/mini_qed2.pdf

I notice that they removed the disc brakes to install the hub motors and are relying solely on regen braking. Further to the discussions above about reliability of this setup, this vehicle has redundancy by way of the four individual motors/controls and dual circuit electrical system.

The info on the motor also shows that a parking brake option is available:
http://www.pmlflightlink.com/motors/hipa_drive.html

That motor has a very high power to weight ratio - 4.8kW/kg for the 120kW version!
 
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