Do you believe.

[clive bradbury]

god cant save evrybody from death cause if he did the world would go mad people would shoot at eachother knowing that god would save them all order would be lost.

A fair description of the motivation for many terrorist acts. Suicide bombers might think twice if they had not been told that their acts would lead them to be served by 72 virgins in Paradise - blind belief is a dangerous thing. By the way, a paradise in which all the women are virgins ain't my idea of a good time...

 

[Urwumpe]

I see it more mathematically: If god defined the rules of the universe and operated from outside it, we can't tell if he exists. Even if he influences the universe today. All evidence we will find, will always point to something inside our universe, as our universe is, per definition, complete. Even if god would find it funny to put a pink rubber boot in a lignite layer - we would only be able to find the cause inside our own universe. Of course some might assume correctly "That was a sign of god" - but you can't be sure.

I personally have a more spiritual attitude towards the naturalistic universe. Everything might have a simple physical explanation, but one thing will always be magic to me: That it is. There are moments on this tiny planet, when the sheer beauty of this universe is overwhelming you and even the coldest thought of the physical rules which formed these moments will not help you.

I don't mind much what other people believe in what is happening outside the rules of our universe. My own believe is as correct as theirs. Also, god does not need a cause - he operates outside our universe. Also, not all things inside our universe have a strictly defined cause. At least I don't know if scientists already have a better explanation of what causes nuclear decay and what triggers it. Some things just happen, because they are not completely impossible. Just like god, leprechauns and the tooth fairy.

 

[jedidia]

Some things just happen, because they are not completely impossible.

Reminds me of Pratchet: "Things just happen, what the hell?" :lol:

 

[SiameseCat]

In the minds of atheists, the anthropic principal basically means, "If the universe wasn't like this, we wouldn't be here to study it."

In the minds of theists, the anthropic principal means, "God fine-tuned the universe for our existence."

Both sides of this debate are simply viewing this principal in completely different ways.

To me, the anthropic principle is "If the universe wasn't like this, we wouldn't be here to study it." A theist can then add, "Therefore, God must have fine-tuned the universe for our existence." The problem with this logic is that the second part does not necessarily follow from the first. While God fine-tuning the universe is certainly a plausible explanation for why the universe is the way it is, there are many others which do not require a God.

Most people don't realize that God doesn't answer prayer if it is not according to His will. If it is not God's will for a tricycle to appear in front of me, I can pray for a tricycle all day long, but it's not going to happen.

Then what's the point of prayer? If God wants a tricycle to appear in front of you it will appear, whether you pray for it or not. If God does not want a tricycle to appear in front of you then it won't. Prayer has no impact on the result.

 

[Star explorer]

i feel ashamed that i was apart of making this thread from the Do you believe thread to the is god real thread in a matter of 24 hours maybe its time to get back to the subject that this thread was created for.

 

[eveningsky339]

To me, the anthropic principle is "If the universe wasn't like this, we wouldn't be here to study it." A theist can then add, "Therefore, God must have fine-tuned the universe for our existence." The problem with this logic is that the second part does not necessarily follow from the first. While God fine-tuning the universe is certainly a plausible explanation for why the universe is the way it is, there are many others which do not require a God.

Any theories as to how the universe is fine-tuned are more or less speculation. We don't have time machines that can go back and watch the universe being formed.

The theory of a Creator may also be considered speculation by those who have not experienced the acts of this Creator.

Then what's the point of prayer? If God wants a tricycle to appear in front of you it will appear, whether you pray for it or not. If God does not want a tricycle to appear in front of you then it won't. Prayer has no impact on the result.

A tricycle is not going to appear in front of you if you don't ask for it. God has given us free will.

 

[bujin]

"I don't know, so therefore abiogenesis must have done it." Sounds awfully familiar...

Things either appeared by biogenesis or by abiogenesis. There's no other option, and there's no inbetween.

Now, if life on earth was created by biogenesis (i.e. by some divine being), then the question is where the divine being came from. Did it suddenly spring into existence by abiogenesis itself? If so, which is more plausible - that abiogenesis can occur creating extremely simple replicating molecules that over a period of billions of years develops slowly into the creatures we see around us today, or that abiogenesis can occur by creating an extremely complex, sentient being that is capable of creating an entire universe? Or did the divine being itself evolve slowly over a long period of time from much simpler organisms until it got to the point where it could create our universe? And if so, where did the first "divine" life come from? Did it have its own "God" creator?

Infinite regress. Life had to begin somewhere.

It seems to me that splitting life into "primitive" and "non-primitive" or "intelligent" and "non-intelligent" groups is a rather anthropocentric view. Just because we consider ourselves the crown of evolution or creation (as you like), doesn't mean that oversized brains are necessarily a good idea when it comes to survival, and that life would naturally tend towards developing "intelligence". Simplicity and large numbers may turn out to be a far better strategy in that respect. Viruses and microorganisms will probably roam the earth long after humans are a distant history. Plus, their simplicity and robustness makes them far better interstellar travelers than we can ever hope to be. Viruses may be busy colonising the galaxy as we speak, while we are stuck on this planet, trying to keep our brains occupied with musings about god, the universe and everything ...

Indeed. It's often thought that humans are the dominant species on the planet because of what we have done in our 200,000 years or so, but the truth is that without the simple things like bacteria, we wouldn't be able to survive.

 

[Ghostrider]

but the truth is that without the simple things like bacteria, we wouldn't be able to survive.

Yeah. Don't remind me of it. Darn Martians and them tripods!

 

[Kyle]

Everything but the 3rd one I believe in.

 

[n0mad23]

I believe there are Mysteries with a capital "M." Biochemistry is one of them, which is why the questions are equally as interesting as the answers.

Though I disagree with most of the impulses of Calvinism, I do have to say I like the position that since we have brains, we should use them.

 

[ryan]

i feel ashamed that i was apart of making this thread from the Do you believe thread to the is god real thread in a matter of 24 hours maybe its time to get back to the subject that this thread was created for.

Actually i made it for like do you believe in anything. That includes god and more importantly the probe.

 

[Piper]

....and more importantly the probe.

Now that I DEFINETELY believe!

As for arguing the existence of God, I've been doing that for years and have gotten quite sick of the same tired arguments over and over again, as such I'm not going to argue it here (if you do want to argue it, I suggest my old stamping grounds The Rational Response Squad). I came to Orbiter to enjoy physics, science, astronomy, and the universe around us.

However, I am very interested in the idea of other life in the universe, and am more then willing to debate and discuss that.

 

[ryan]

Now that I DEFINETELY believe!

Hail probe!!!