New destination for WWII U-boat.

[Notebook]

It's a bit old news, but, I didn't know there were any U-Boats in the UK, never mind them being broken up and transported.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/7287131.stm

N.

 

[Urwumpe]

Only four WW2 submarines in existence? I already know two full-size submarines still existing in Germany + 1 full size WW1 submarine.

Just counting...
U995 - Laboe Navy Memorial
U2540 "Wilhelm Bauer" - German Maritime Museum Bremerhaven

 

[NukeET]

Only four WW2 submarines in existence?

No. 14 more.

USS Bowfin (SS-287) Pearl Harbor
USS Pampanito (SS-383) San Francisco
USS Cavalla (SSK-244) Galveston
USS Razorback (SS-394) Little Rock
USS Cod (SS-224) Cleveland
USS Silversides (SS-236) Muskegon, Michigan
USS Becuna (SS-319) Philadelphia
USS Drum (SS-228) Mobile
USS Batfish (SS-310) Muskogee, Oklahoma
USS Cobia (SS-245) Manitowoc, Wisconsin
USS Croaker (SS-246) Buffalo
USS Lionfish (SS-298) Fall River
USS Torsk (SS-243) Baltimore

Last but not least, U-505, Chicago

 

[Notebook]

I think they are refering to German boats

The Imperial War Museum confirmed there are only four full-size WWII German U-Boats in existence, and that U-534 is the only one in the UK.

Must have a look when they are finished. I went round one in Hawaii when I was on holliday, years ago. Fascinating machines.

N.

 

[simonpro]

Unfortunately it looks like they are planning on leaving the submarine in two parts. I always think that's a bit of a shame, it's nice to see the thing in one piece! Still, hard to find the space for it I suppose.

(edit) Between this one, the two that Urwumpe listed and the U505 in the USA that looks like all the remaining boats. It's surprising just how few of the things are left. Mind you, there's probably quite a lot lying around the ocean floor..

 

[Notebook]

Yes, they didn't have much chance of survival if they were damaged. The Anti-Submarine forces didn't give up once they had a contact. I suspect it would be very difficult to get away from a group of destroyers. May have been easier at the beginning of WWII, when ASDIC and SONAR were being developed.
I think U-Boat crews had the highest casualties of the German forces during WWII.

N.

 

[Urwumpe]

Well, if you look at the numbers build, especially in Germany, it is really disappointing how much got lost since then. Warbirds have a better lobby I think, than old submarines. I think many people give submarines still the tag of modern piracy, including submarine crews themselves.

 

[Notebook]

Preservation of ships dosen't seem to have the 'glamour' of preserving aircraft. In the UK, with its naval history, I can think of only one museum at Portsmouth. That has HMS Victory, HMS Warrior(first iron frame ship, I think), and the Mary Rose, one of HenryVIII vessels that came to bad end, and was brought up about 20 years ago.
The only WWII ship is HMS Belfast, and that sits on the Thames, next to Tower Bridge. I've been on that one, for a big ship, its full of little rooms!

I guess ships just don't last as long as aircraft, unless they are well maintained. Naval vessels have a long life, but they become obsolete, and get broken up, or sold on to other navies.

N.

 

[Urwumpe]

I guess ships just don't last as long as aircraft, unless they are well maintained. Naval vessels have a long life, but they become obsolete, and get broken up, or sold on to other navies.

I think maintenance is the bigger problem - a ship costs much more to stay preserved than a plane. Especially if a car mechanic is enough to repair a WW2 aircraft engine, while you would need somebody working for a train company to work with a ship engine - or better on a ship himself.

I would really like to one visit one of the last dreadnoughts. But they seem to be only in the USA - and not in WW2 shape.

 

[Notebook]

I don't think there are any large naval ships left in the UK, just the Belfast, and thats a light cruiser. Nothing of heavy cruiser or larger.
There was a story last year of a plan to bring a cruiser back from North Africa. Ex Royal Navy, I think it was sold to the Egyptian Navy. Haven't heard any more of that.

The USS New Jersey was still in service a few years ago, I don't know if thats been retired as a musuem?

N.

 

[NukeET]

I think they are refering to German boats


Must have a look when they are finished. I went round one in Hawaii when I was on holliday, years ago. Fascinating machines.

N.

They may have been...but not per the quote in my first post.

What you saw in Hawaii was USS Bowfin.

I think U-Boat crews had the highest casualties of the German forces during WWII.

True statement. Same can be said of US Submarine Force during WW2.

It's surprising just how few of the things are left. Mind you, there's probably quite a lot lying around the ocean floor..

Yeah, in the US Navy, this is called "Eternally on patrol". RIP

I think many people give submarines still the tag of modern piracy, including submarine crews themselves.

You may be right from an external standpoint, but no one on my crew thought this way.

 

[Urwumpe]

You may be right from an external standpoint, but no one on my crew thought this way.

Well, the royal Navy submarines like to set the Jolly Roger when returning to their home base. Maybe it is a small insider joke and/or different in the US, but for example German submarine crews also have some kind of underdog eliteness around them.

 

[simonpro]

You may be right from an external standpoint, but no one on my crew thought this way.

Boomer crews generally don't. I know a few people in the submarine services (mostly in Europe, but one or two in the USA) and all their attack boat crews liek to see themselves as vague pirate type people, Urwumpe is quite corrcet about the jolly roger on british navy vessels, danish ones (assuming they ever do anything) and swedish ones also have similar traditions.

 

[Notebook]

They may have been...but not per the quote in my first post.

What you saw in Hawaii was USS Bowfin.



True statement. Same can be said of US Submarine Force during WW2.



Yeah, in the US Navy, this is called "Eternally on patrol". RIP



You may be right from an external standpoint, but no one on my crew thought this way.

The USS Bowfin was the submarine I went around, I remember it now. We also were shown around the USS Arizona memorial.

N.

 

[Andy44]

About the USS New Jersey: she is retired and doing museum duty in Camden, NJ on the Delaware River where she was built, right across the water from Philadelphia. I haven't had a chance to visit yet, but my brother and father have been aboard and were very impressed.

The Jersey is one of 4 Iowa-class battleships built, and all four still exist. Iowa and New Jersey are both floating museums, now, I'm not sure about Missouri and Wisconsin, they may still be on the reserve list, but they are not likely to ever see service again. I have heard that when those ships were used in the 80's and in '91 they were still using the old mechanical analog ballistic computers that are built into them and linked by gears and shafts from the gun turrets to the CIC; I don't know if that's true, but I love old machinery like that. Can't wait to get a look for myself.

As for U-boats, there is a sunken U-boat off the coast of North Carolina, U-352, I think it is, and it's a very popular SCUBA dive site. I've dived on it at least 3 or 4 times. It was found by a local dive shop back in the 70s, and the U.S. Navy quarantined it for a while, until they could remove all the remains of German sailors to send them back to Germany, and also to remove or disarm all the live ordnance they could reach. There are still live torpedos aboard, but they are inaccessible without ripping the ship open. The boat is basically intact, laying over on about a 45 deg angle, in 110' of water. The top of the conning tower is about 80' or 85', the hatches have been removed, as have the screws and the AAA gun, which currently sits on the dock at the dive shop in Atlantic Beach. No one has ever reported finding the deck gun.

The rudders are still there, and parts of the outer hull have eroded away (or were blasted away by the Coast Guard cutter that sank her), so you can see some of the machinery on the shafts, perhaps the stuffing box or electric motors. The bow is almost broken off and bent to one side, she may have landed nose-first in the sand. The hatchways are small in diameter and it's pitch dark inside, but if you stick a flashlight in you can see some hardware. You don't dare go into that tight space with SCUBA gear if you know what's good for you.

About half her crew survived the action, and some of them returned to the site for a ceremony back in the 80's or 70's.

 

[Notebook]

Thats interesting, about the USS BB status, they must be the last class of those ships left?

I'm surprised the submarine was let to be disturbed, isn't classed as a war grave?

N.

 

[Andy44]

I don't know about that law, but I guess that since the remains were sent back to Germany it's just a hunk of metal, now.

 

[Urwumpe]

I don't know about that law, but I guess that since the remains were sent back to Germany it's just a hunk of metal, now.

I think it is also the number of submarines still "on patrol", why the memorial in Laboe is considered more important for remembering the dead.

Also, this submarine sounds like the number of dead submariners is pretty low, as it sank in shallow water, in the range for leaving the boat safely (in fact, current German submarine training includes evacuating a submarine in 45m depth with personal equipment).

What I would like to visit is the Bismark... A bit far away, but what I saw of it in photo books, is quite impressive. It really looks like it is "still on patrol".

 

[Andy44]

Here are some great photos of U-352.

Alas, these aren't my photos, I have some but they're not nearly this clear.

Here's the deck gun outside Olympus Dive Shop:

Here's the crew:

 

[pattersoncr]

During WWII, US submarine forces suffered 22% casualties, the highest of any part of the US forces, as NukeET pointed out. Losses to German U-boat crews were far higher. Theres a quote at the beginning of the movie "Das Boot" that 45,000 German sailors went to sea in U-boats. 30,000 never returned. (In my opinion, "Das Boot" is the greatest submarine movie ever made, coming from a former submariner I consider that high praise.) I have a tremendous amout of respect for the WWII U-boatmen. The US submarine force has a proud tradition, but those guys invented submarine warfare.

Andy,

Missouri is moored in Pearl Harbor at the next berth over from the wreck of the Arizona it has been pointed out how poetic this placement is considering that the destruction of Arizona began the war (for America at least) and the Japanese surrender was signed on the deck of the Missouri, officially ending the war.