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C3PO

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I'm not saying that Trance isn't a "valid" genre either, but I consider most Trance performers producers rather than musicians. To me it's rather like paint-by-numbers and not my cup of tea.

I know there are good musicians in the genre, but IMHO they do a darn good job of hiding it. This guy lived next door to me until 2008, and I know how talented he is.
 

SolarLiner

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I'm not saying that Trance isn't a "valid" genre either, but I consider most Trance performers producers rather than musicians. To me it's rather like paint-by-numbers and not my cup of tea.

Spot on! Yes they are producers (and most of the time DJs as well) but they still by the definition are musicians. If we like or not, well that's an other story...
 

Andy44

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Spot on! Yes they are producers (and most of the time DJs as well) but they still by the definition are musicians. If we like or not, well that's an other story...

IIRC Kraftwerk onced referred to themselves as "music workers" rather than musicians.

I have played with soft synths and hardware sequencers and made some interesting and fairly complex tunes. While I am a decent bassist I really can't play a keyboard very well. But when "playing" music means building a sequence of notes on a timeline and then letting the machine play it, that to me is more like composing than playing. We are almost at the point where you can literally write music in traditional script and a machine will read it back and play it for you. I don't think computers can read documents that well yet, but I don't think it's a reach to say someone could code that up someday.

This could turn into a verrrrry long debate on where the line is between musician and music-writer.
 

fsci123

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Music rant-

I agree with solar liner... But I also believe that electronica is the natural evolution of music. Playing instruments is a relic of a time when physical labor and skill was required to make a living. Now, due to increasing mechanization, mental labor has become supreme...that's why nerds are looked on as modern heroes and electronica has blossomed to hidden supremacy worldwide.
 

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Why has Imageshack betrayed us all? They made the website a paid subscription service, and then deleted a lot of old images and replaced them with "Click and discover Imageshack." (which you can't even click!)
 

Andy44

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Playing instruments is a relic of a time when physical labor and skill was required to make a living. Now, due to increasing mechanization, mental labor has become supreme...that's why nerds are looked on as modern heroes and electronica has blossomed to hidden supremacy worldwide.

That's absolute hogwash. Something to make lazy "musicians" feel better about not learning to actually play a keyboard or another instrument. All the best electronic musicians actually play instruments.

And if you've never actually felt the wood of a guitar or a bass or a violin vibrate in your hands, or felt the strings respond to your touch, then you have no idea what you're talking about. As long as there are humans there will be physical musical instruments.

Photography didn't make painting obsolete, it just added to the art world. The electric guitar and bass didn't make acoustic guitars and upright basses extinct. And electronics don't make physical instruments obsolete, they are just another class of instrument.

I play analog synths. I love the sound I get from them. But to really get what I need I have to put my fingers on the keys, and I have to teach myself at least the bare minimum technique to play a melody.

I also play bass at jazz jam sessions for fun with musicians at least 5 times better than I am. Jazz is fun because it's human to be social and play in a group with people, and because jazz is improvisational. Show me one, just one, machine that can improvise like even the worst jazz musician I know. Programming a machine ahead of time is not improvising. In jazz you may play the same tune 50 times, but never play it exactly the same way twice. That's what music is all about.

Rock is the same way. I have played in hard rock bands. Jamming with friends, getting it down, and playing in public at heavy volume is what it's all about. I have a cousin who is a professional classical pianist. He plays music that is composed by someone else, but when he plays it he puts his own expression into it by changing up the tempo, emphasizing certain notes and phrases, etc. He makes his own performance.

I love music of all types. But to say playing real instruments is a "relic" is absurd. :rofl:
 
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ex-orbinaut

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All this debate on music and "how it was better before" could use someone young, that loves EDM, and more precisely Trance and its subgenres.

Well, at least I respect your tastes :). In fact I am mighty glad of them. By sheer coincidence I have been playing around over the last three days, as time permits, with Caustic. It is great to know that I have already been able to produce something that I know at least one person would like!

:cheers: (Awful as it sounds to me).
 

fsci123

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I'm not saying plying instruments is bad, I think it makes edm production easier and can make your song stand out. But, making songs solely with instruments is slowly becoming a thing of the past because most instruments can be sampled or emulated in a daw. Most songs, even ones made by "traditional" musicians requires some computer editing to enhance the sound(EQing, HiPass, rearranging).

In the future, advances in technology will make all forms of "physical" music obsolete. Probably within 20 years, we will have software that could emulate singing or rapping...that way, we edm producers will have complete independence from other artists and our creativity won't be inhibited by other people.


BTW: Most people who call electronic artists lazy and untalented generally have failed to secure a traditional musical career themselves.
 

Urwumpe

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Regardless what kind of instrument you play: What makes you a musician is, if you master it.

I don't really like most examples of electronic music, because it lacks my definition of mastering the instruments - or just the synthesizer and sequencer equipment, which also allows mastership. Even in terms of the composition of a song, complexity is no sign of mastership, but some at first sight simple songs are really masterpieces of composition.

If you just have a 4/4 bass drum of your 808 and some microscopic standard bass line, you are not really a master of the music. David Guetta is for example not really what I call a musician. He is a performer maybe. Or a salesman. But musical mastership? I don't find it. The early days of German techno music had seen better already.

Same with many vocaloid tracks. You think just playing randomly in the evening is good music and that having one nice song out of 100,000 makes you a master? Some really big compositions needed years to grow from idea to the first full song and often require you to have mastered the instruments as well. Others developed spontaneously, but required the actors to be masters of their music to get this instinctive understanding of music.

If you think AC/DC is simple, because any fool can learn to play some of their songs, just try to write a song like AC/DC... it will never be quite like it.
 
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I'll see your AC/DC and raise you Electric Light Orchestra (ELO can't even sound like ELO any longer).

I must make myself clear. It's not that I dislike all things synthesized. I'm a big fan of ELO. Even Freddy Mercury saw what a synthesizer could (musically) bring to the table. And Kieth Emerson is a master of the keyboard (I could write a whole string of names of keyboard artists, but I'd inevitably leave someone out so I'll just stop with him).

To me, much of the electronica (?) music is very formulaic, I can't tell where one ends and another picks up. It's not that it's ALL the same, one just blends into the next. If that's your thing, OK, I dig it. It's not my thing.

I don't think "conventional" music is on the skids, I think it's holding it's own quite nicely. Compare the cover charge to get into some Atlanta rave club with a DJ to the price of tickets for a Jimmy Buffett, Elton John or Rolling Stones concert (if they don't sell out before you manage to buy them that is).

Now I'm going to annoy some neighbors and try to shake pictures off the wall with some ZZ Top.
 
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n122vu

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Speaking of a lot of recent music sounding the same....
 

SolarLiner

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This debate on electronic music versus rock/pop pusic became a "why doesn't modern music perform live?" All your examples have been live performances (and yes mine too) of all genres. We are talking music here, not live gigs. Yes, live is one thing, but music and quality is not defined by how well live performances are.

In studio, yes, there are two different workflows. There is the "play all and record" workflow, and there are the "record the notes and render afterwards" workflow. The only reason why Trance is much more of the latter is because of the way VSTs work and the complexity of the sounds, calculations wise. So you need to render out a sound, but not in a realtime fashion. This would be like realtime graphics in games versus CGI: the two have the same goal (make music/produce an image), but the process isn't the same. At the end you have a picture or a sound, and it's up to you to like it or not.

After that to make another parallel we can talk about photography versus CGI, or painting versus photography, as mentioned earlier. With one you can't do live performances, but you can still do art and it is appreciated by people.
 

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There are people who still don't use imgur for that? Is it 2010 again?
I switched to imgur as soon as I found out that Imageshack was going to have people pay for it. I'm just lamenting the replacement of many pictures on forums by "Click and discover Imageshack."
 
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BruceJohnJennerLawso

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Recently was working on commenting and fixing parts of an xml file. What crazy person designed this madness?
 

Urwumpe

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Recently was working on commenting and fixing parts of an xml file. What crazy person designed this madness?

A committee.

Luckily, if you know a bit more about the madness of XML, you can enjoy some help.
 
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