Notebook
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Question Berlin Airlift, end of the alliance, start of the Cold-War?
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Notebook
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The airlift sticks in my mind as the first overtly aggresive act by Stalin. Things had gone downhill after the Potsdam conference I think.
I always get the impression Churchill felt sidelined by Eisenhower with Stalin, he dosen't seem to have had the same relationship he had with Roosevelt.
N.
I always get the impression Churchill felt sidelined by Eisenhower with Stalin, he dosen't seem to have had the same relationship he had with Roosevelt.
N.
SiberianTiger
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Before Joseph Stalin:
Atfer Joseph Stalin:
- The USSR controlled by a parliament of highly educated Marxists
- Economic liberties granted to small entrepreneurs and successful peasants
- Growing innovative and scientific interaction with the West
- The USSR's birth rate at 45/1000
- Powerful Communist movements in Western Europe and the USA
- Leading Capitalist powers are split and hostile towards each other
Atfer Joseph Stalin:
- The USSR is controlled by a totalitarian bureaucratic hierarchy built up by a one time highwayman
- People deprived of any economic liberties; peasant class forcefully urbanized
- Iron curtain put on and technology & arms race against the West is going on
- The USSR's birth rate at 25/1000
- Communist parties banned at the West
- Leading Capitalist powers are united in the NATO, FRG pulled to their side
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RangerPL
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Stalin is who destroyed the USSR. If the USSR had remained the way it was before Stalin, it would have thrived greatly.
Linguofreak
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The question, though, is if the USSR could have remained the way it was before Stalin, or if planned economies have built-in vulnerabilities to dictators.
Andy44
owner: Oil Creek Astronautix
Again, it sometimes scares me when Urwumpe says exactly what I am thinking...
SiberianTiger
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No one can be sure until China adopts democracy.
Ghostrider
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Hey, wait a moment: Brad and Angelina gets first dibs on every adoption. Didn't you get the memo?
Andy44
owner: Oil Creek Astronautix
I predict an Orphanic Empire will rise, ruled by Brangelina.
It will expand itself by eliminating parents and adopting the children.
At least the propaganda films might be entertaining.
It will expand itself by eliminating parents and adopting the children.
At least the propaganda films might be entertaining.
Moonwalker
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The cold war was a great era. It actually did not only enable Juri Gagarin to be the first human in space, but also the Apollo program, Concorde and Airbus to fly. Not to mention other technological progresses, good or bad.
Don't understand me wrong, but certain things have become rather boring these days. A new "competition" won't hurt...
Don't understand me wrong, but certain things have become rather boring these days. A new "competition" won't hurt...
Andy44
owner: Oil Creek Astronautix
Yeah, it also resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Koreans, Vietnamese, Afghans, the list goes on. It also resulted in the total crushing of freedom for several generations of people, and the corruption of many "free" governments, morphing them into the surveilance states they are today, by taxing the daylights out of their own citizens to pay for "defense" for half a century, institutionalizing the practice for the forseeable future.
Using the space race and government technology advances to justify the Cold War is a classic broken window fallacy, taken to its absurd conclusion.
As if it's okay to kill all those third-world nobodies as long as you get to watch a cool rocket land on the moon on TV.
Using the space race and government technology advances to justify the Cold War is a classic broken window fallacy, taken to its absurd conclusion.
As if it's okay to kill all those third-world nobodies as long as you get to watch a cool rocket land on the moon on TV.
Moonwalker
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Do you own a gun Andy44? If so, trash it. Weapons are used to kill people all over the world (that's even the basement of the weapons existence). Also, do not even take airplanes. Its technologies hugely originates from war technologies and military usage, responsible for uncountable deaths around the globe (Boeing and EADS both produce war machinery). As a German I should not even use certain motorways, as they were built by the Nazis for their dirty purposes. Moreover, the man who contributed to help the USA flying to the Moon and who became the alternate director of NASA in 1972 was jointly responsible for forced labor and many deaths in Germany during WWII. So do not like Apollo. Do not watch it, do not like to simulate it in Orbiter. I could continue for hours and days...
Do you contribute any help (beside spending money) to third World countries and countries that suffer from war? Are you enjoying your life on a planet that is ful of death and mass destruction?
That many deaths resulted from the Cold War does not take away the fact that our technological progress (which even includes the Space Shuttle and Buran) in the second half of the 20th century hugely was possible due to the Cold War and the resulting purposes of politicians. I'm not at all ashamed to call it a helpful era.
Do you contribute any help (beside spending money) to third World countries and countries that suffer from war? Are you enjoying your life on a planet that is ful of death and mass destruction?
That many deaths resulted from the Cold War does not take away the fact that our technological progress (which even includes the Space Shuttle and Buran) in the second half of the 20th century hugely was possible due to the Cold War and the resulting purposes of politicians. I'm not at all ashamed to call it a helpful era.
Urwumpe
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I smell an argument ad hitlerum. Smells like chicken. Scorched chicken.
Moonwalker, you can really continue for hours and I won't doubt your plain capability of doing so, but better stop now. You are getting lost inside your own arguments.
First of all, because you have not really improved the situation for you with your last post. You just argue headless for the sake of silencing the laughter.
Second, because your argumentation can also be turned against you. Without the cold war, where would Von Braun have ended? My bet would be in Nuremburg. The cold war was the reason why many war criminals of WW2 got spared from justice.
And the deaths of the cold war do in fact take the fact of technological progress away. Because you can't prove in any rational way, how the technological progress was linked to the Cold war. The deaths are absolute, the technological progress a what if. The end of the cold war did not stop technological progress. In fact, it did not even slow down. What ended was the headless military spending of the cold war...until the war against terrorism started it again.
That you are not ashamed to call it a helpful era, without even being able to tell, where it helped, is sure not helping you.
Apollo was started because of the Cold war, but it was also limited to flags and footprints because of the cold war (Vietnam war). The Space shuttle was funded by cold war budgets of the air force, but was also ruined by it - the Air Force requirements are all those reasons why the Shuttle was expensive and overcomplicated.
Progress was limited to one field of technology, which was clearly and without doubt boosted by the cold war: Nuclear weapons. And the rockets to deliver them. You can even declare, that no large-scale project of the cold war had a chance, without a military application. The Internet was not created for online shopping, it was created for creating a decentralized communication network. The success of it, started after the cold war.
Moonwalker, you can really continue for hours and I won't doubt your plain capability of doing so, but better stop now. You are getting lost inside your own arguments.
First of all, because you have not really improved the situation for you with your last post. You just argue headless for the sake of silencing the laughter.
Second, because your argumentation can also be turned against you. Without the cold war, where would Von Braun have ended? My bet would be in Nuremburg. The cold war was the reason why many war criminals of WW2 got spared from justice.
And the deaths of the cold war do in fact take the fact of technological progress away. Because you can't prove in any rational way, how the technological progress was linked to the Cold war. The deaths are absolute, the technological progress a what if. The end of the cold war did not stop technological progress. In fact, it did not even slow down. What ended was the headless military spending of the cold war...until the war against terrorism started it again.
That you are not ashamed to call it a helpful era, without even being able to tell, where it helped, is sure not helping you.
Apollo was started because of the Cold war, but it was also limited to flags and footprints because of the cold war (Vietnam war). The Space shuttle was funded by cold war budgets of the air force, but was also ruined by it - the Air Force requirements are all those reasons why the Shuttle was expensive and overcomplicated.
Progress was limited to one field of technology, which was clearly and without doubt boosted by the cold war: Nuclear weapons. And the rockets to deliver them. You can even declare, that no large-scale project of the cold war had a chance, without a military application. The Internet was not created for online shopping, it was created for creating a decentralized communication network. The success of it, started after the cold war.
Moonwalker
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I do understand that some people do not like the fact that certain technologies and depending adventures are the outcomes of the Cold War.
As for the post- Cold War progress: neither the USA, nor Russia launch something different into orbit, manned, soon nearly two decades after the Cold War. There is no progress beside slight changes/updates of space relicts of the cold war. The only new manned thing in the sky is a Mir volume II.
And not to mention Concorde, which rests in museums. No replacement here either. No need anymore to fund such projects. Boring times...
As for the post- Cold War progress: neither the USA, nor Russia launch something different into orbit, manned, soon nearly two decades after the Cold War. There is no progress beside slight changes/updates of space relicts of the cold war. The only new manned thing in the sky is a Mir volume II.
And not to mention Concorde, which rests in museums. No replacement here either. No need anymore to fund such projects. Boring times...
Linguofreak
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Won't prove anything, considering that they are now communist only in name...
RangerPL
Addon Consumer
Their government is still communist, but their economy is capitalist.
cjp
Addon Developer
If their economy isn't communist (which I can confirm, at least for Shanghai), then their government isn't communist either. Communism is an economical system.
What you probably wanted to say is that their government is undemocratic, oppressive, not respecting human rights & so on. but calling that communism is incorrect IMHO. You should not confuse things.
In fact, I think in theory it is possible to have a country with a communist economy and a western-style democratic government. But maybe, as pointed out, such as combination might be inherently unstable. At least I don't know of any such country in the past or the present.
