OS WARS MEGA THREAD (Now debating proprietary vs. open-source!)

[Pablo49]

I don't understand why you would install Orbiter to your program files directory anyway. Since orbiter installs are always dynamic (save files, installing new addons) and most of us have multiple installs anyways.

I run it on win7, and with the D3D9 client, it preforms better than the inline did on XP.

 

[Cras]

With the D3D9 Client, Win7 works great. But if you want to use the DGIV, Shuttle Fleet, or spacecraft and mulistage based vessels, and thus cannot use the D3D9 client, then XP is the way to go. Performance in XP for me is many many many times better than Win 7.

---------- Post added at 04:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:45 PM ----------

Many programs are not running well/not running at all on 64Bit.

What programs do you expect to have issues with?

 

[Apollon]

With the D3D9 Client, Win7 works great. But if you want to use the DGIV, Shuttle Fleet, or spacecraft and mulistage based vessels, and thus cannot use the D3D9 client, then XP is the way to go. Performance in XP for me is many many many times better than Win 7.

---------- Post added at 04:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:45 PM ----------



What programs do you expect to have issues with?

Well i had some programs that were not working, i can't remember the name, but also some drivers are not working.

 

[Jarvitä]

Has there been any progress in running orbiter on wine lately? I ask because I have several more productive uses in mind for the old computer I'm currently keeping XP on for the sole purpose of running orbiter.

 

[Cras]

I ask because 64 bit OS is awfully common place now and I find that the troubles I used to have getting 64 bit drivers, or getting the more serious of applications to run in 64 bit Windows have long gone. There was a time when I first jumped in with 64 bit Vista that I had to keep a second partition of 32 bit OS to keep certain things funcitonal.
But now that is no longer the case. I can't remember the last time I had an issue find a 64 bit driver, and if I do come across a piece of software that just will not run in 64 bit, I find compatability mode for a 32 bit OS does the trick, and in one case where it did not, a created a Virtual Machine with XP 32bit to run it.

I guess I am saying that 64 bit OS's are not as exotic and unweildy as they used to be. I no longer keep a 32 bit OS on my machine anymore, instead I have switched it over to a 64 bit version of XP (which is still and will always be harder to use than Win7 64), but I say in my personal opinion, the hardships found in the new 64 bit world are not as great as they used to be just a few short year ago, and the benefit of being able to have just massive amounts of memory far outweights any of the hardships should they arise.

 

[Keatah]

Programs shouldn't need to save to Program Files once installed anyway. If you follow the Windows App guidelines then saved data should go in your home folder (or somewhere underneath there). Saved data shouldn't be saved in Program Files.

Orbiter ignores a lot of these rules.

With good reason...and rightfully so! I cannot begin to say how silly this is :rofl:
It's other programs that ignore good practices.

I strongly believe that there should be an o/s directory, and a program directory, and within each program's directory, there should be a settings file, and of course the data files should reside there too, in their own sub. Orbiter follows this. It keeps everything together.

Most programs throw crap here and make directories inside the o/s directory and add files to it and patch it. Then their settings are put into the my documents folder and other strangely located directories. And let us not forget registry entries and temp files and multi-user settings. What a frakking TEDIOUS mess.

Orbiter is perfection, because, when I move it to another computer I just copy *O*N*E* *S*I*N*G*L*E* *D*I*R*E*C*T*O*R*Y* and everything comes along for the ride! Settings, graphics, .ini files, screenshots, .config files, executables, .dll's, It is entirely self-contained from a user's point of view. One directory. Everything is there. Folks, this is as simple as the old Atari 2600 game console; the one where you'd plug in cartridges, turn the system on, and immediately begin gaming within 5 seconds of deciding what you want to do. Hats off to Martin for making orbiter in the same style.

And while I don't have intention of removing Orbiter except in perhaps system maintenance situations, it's nice to know I can simply lift it up and put it back down in one copy operation. Try doing that with Office or Photoshop; it ain't happening folks.

The whole idea of a registry and throwing config files and settings and parts of programs all over the directory tree is just plain retarded. Do not argue with me on this point.

 

[Hielor]

With respect to XP vs. Win7 vs. Vista, I'm surprised no one has linked this thread yet: http://www.orbiter-forum.com/showthread.php?t=7356

First off, don't get Vista. Just pretend it never happened.

As for the other two...due to various reasons that I go into in that thread, XP will outperform Win7 on identical hardware when using the default DX7 renderer.

However, DX7 is getting rather long in the tooth, and if you have a strong system, you'll still be getting above 100fps in Win7, at which point there's really no reason to stick to XP.

With the DX9 client, I suspect that XP's performance advantage will diminish greatly. If it's ever possible to use exclusively the DX9 client and drop the DX7 one, there will likely be no reason to choose XP over Win7 for Orbiter.

As for this:

With good reason...and rightfully so! I cannot begin to say how silly this is :rofl:
It's other programs that ignore good practices.

I strongly believe that there should be an o/s directory, and a program directory, and within each program's directory, there should be a settings file, and of course the data files should reside there too, in their own sub. Orbiter follows this. It keeps everything together.

Most programs throw crap here and make directories inside the o/s directory and add files to it and patch it. Then their settings are put into the my documents folder and other strangely located directories. And let us not forget registry entries and temp files and multi-user settings. What a frakking TEDIOUS mess.

Orbiter is perfection, because, when I move it to another computer I just copy *O*N*E* *S*I*N*G*L*E* *D*I*R*E*C*T*O*R*Y* and everything comes along for the ride! Settings, graphics, .ini files, screenshots, .config files, executables, .dll's, It is entirely self-contained from a user's point of view. One directory. Everything is there. Folks, this is as simple as the old Atari 2600 game console; the one where you'd plug in cartridges, turn the system on, and immediately begin gaming within 5 seconds of deciding what you want to do. Hats off to Martin for making orbiter in the same style.

And while I don't have intention of removing Orbiter except in perhaps system maintenance situations, it's nice to know I can simply lift it up and put it back down in one copy operation. Try doing that with Office or Photoshop; it ain't happening folks.

The whole idea of a registry and throwing config files and settings and parts of programs all over the directory tree is just plain retarded. Do not argue with me on this point.

Sorry, but I'm going to argue with you on this point, because you're wrong.

In a single-user system, sure it makes sense to just lump everything together.

However, Windows (and pretty much every other modern OS) is no longer a single-user system. It's a multi-user system, designed to allow you to have multiple people using a single computer without interfering with each other. Johnny logs out, his sister Sally logs in, and now the computer presents itself to Sally as if Johnny's files don't exist at all.

With programs dumping their save and config files into their own folder, you get "contamination" between the users. Let's say, for example, that Johnny is colorblind, so he has all his config files for a given game set up to avoid colors that he can't distinguish. Sally is not colorblind, and she discovers this game and wants to play too, but she doesn't like the colors Johnny chose, so she returns everything to defaults and saves the settings.

Now, when Johnny goes back to this game, he'll have to change all the settings back to his way, and Sally will have to do the same, and so on and so forth. They end up getting into some good old-fashioned sibling fights and cause tension and stress in the household.

Now, if that program had been *properly* saving settings per-user in the user's own directory, Sally's settings wouldn't overwrite Johnny's, and they could peacefully coexist on the same system, never the twain shall meet. When Johnny goes off to college and gets a new computer, he installs the game, copies his user directory (or uses Windows Easy Transfer!) and all his settings are preserved.

"Well, why don't you have per-user settings saved inside the program's folder?" is the next question. The answer is because then it's harder on the program developer to get things right. The Windows SDK makes it "easy" to get things right--you just ask where you should store the data for that user, it tells you, and you save stuff there. Sure, it's somewhat harder than just saving something to a path relative to the executable, but it respects user settings and is the "right" thing to do.

The registry also serves a different purpose, of providing a single place to store simple settings without cluttering your disk with numerous config files that may all have different formats and conventions.

 

[Lucy]

With respect to XP vs. Win7 vs. Vista, I'm surprised no one has linked this thread yet: http://www.orbiter-forum.com/showthread.php?t=7356

First off, don't get Vista. Just pretend it never happened.

As for the other two...due to various reasons that I go into in that thread, XP will outperform Win7 on identical hardware when using the default DX7 renderer.

However, DX7 is getting rather long in the tooth, and if you have a strong system, you'll still be getting above 100fps in Win7, at which point there's really no reason to stick to XP.

With the DX9 client, I suspect that XP's performance advantage will diminish greatly. If it's ever possible to use exclusively the DX9 client and drop the DX7 one, there will likely be no reason to choose XP over Win7 for Orbiter.

As for this:

Sorry, but I'm going to argue with you on this point, because you're wrong.

In a single-user system, sure it makes sense to just lump everything together.

However, Windows (and pretty much every other modern OS) is no longer a single-user system. It's a multi-user system, designed to allow you to have multiple people using a single computer without interfering with each other. Johnny logs out, his sister Sally logs in, and now the computer presents itself to Sally as if Johnny's files don't exist at all.

With programs dumping their save and config files into their own folder, you get "contamination" between the users. Let's say, for example, that Johnny is colorblind, so he has all his config files for a given game set up to avoid colors that he can't distinguish. Sally is not colorblind, and she discovers this game and wants to play too, but she doesn't like the colors Johnny chose, so she returns everything to defaults and saves the settings.

Now, when Johnny goes back to this game, he'll have to change all the settings back to his way, and Sally will have to do the same, and so on and so forth. They end up getting into some good old-fashioned sibling fights and cause tension and stress in the household.

Now, if that program had been *properly* saving settings per-user in the user's own directory, Sally's settings wouldn't overwrite Johnny's, and they could peacefully coexist on the same system, never the twain shall meet. When Johnny goes off to college and gets a new computer, he installs the game, copies his user directory (or uses Windows Easy Transfer!) and all his settings are preserved.

"Well, why don't you have per-user settings saved inside the program's folder?" is the next question. The answer is because then it's harder on the program developer to get things right. The Windows SDK makes it "easy" to get things right--you just ask where you should store the data for that user, it tells you, and you save stuff there. Sure, it's somewhat harder than just saving something to a path relative to the executable, but it respects user settings and is the "right" thing to do.

The registry also serves a different purpose, of providing a single place to store simple settings without cluttering your disk with numerous config files that may all have different formats and conventions.

Meh. I'm getting tired of having my Documents directory cluttered with folders for every game I own which wants to save there. IMO better practice would be to have a Save folder off from Home in which user save games can be written without interfering with my work / development / actual documents.

The multiuser argument only really applies to a family computer anyway. My Win7 rig gets occasional use from my partner to run a Google search or two, but it's always on anyway, so she just unlocks it (my account) and does it.

Your point remains valid anyway, but I'm all for Orbiter's approach because it allows me to have lots of installs wherever I like, and doesn't tie me into one at a time like most Program Files (a location I changed anyway, and turning off UAC allows programs to write there fine) games do. I have a main gaming install at D:\Program Files (x86)\Orbiter and then three development installs of differing version - two release (2010-P1) and one latest beta, with different addons, configurations, on different drives, all fine.

I also have a portable install on a pen drive for mobile Orbiting. It loads slower, but works just fine.

 

[Cras]

However, DX7 is getting rather long in the tooth, and if you have a strong system, you'll still be getting above 100fps in Win7, at which point there's really no reason to stick to XP.

Not in my experience when using ISS 3.2 That thing will bring my Orbiter in Win 7 to a crawl. In XP, I can keep up my high FPS and not blink an eye.

For me, the only way to run Orbiter in Win 7 is with the Direct 9 client, but alas, this is not an option for me, since it makes many of the vehicles I prefer to use useless, mainly the Shuttle Fleet.

 

[Apollon]

With respect to XP vs. Win7 vs. Vista, I'm surprised no one has linked this thread yet: http://www.orbiter-forum.com/showthread.php?t=7356

First off, don't get Vista. Just pretend it never happened.

As for the other two...due to various reasons that I go into in that thread, XP will outperform Win7 on identical hardware when using the default DX7 renderer.

However, DX7 is getting rather long in the tooth, and if you have a strong system, you'll still be getting above 100fps in Win7, at which point there's really no reason to stick to XP.

With the DX9 client, I suspect that XP's performance advantage will diminish greatly. If it's ever possible to use exclusively the DX9 client and drop the DX7 one, there will likely be no reason to choose XP over Win7 for Orbiter.

As for this:

Sorry, but I'm going to argue with you on this point, because you're wrong.

In a single-user system, sure it makes sense to just lump everything together.

However, Windows (and pretty much every other modern OS) is no longer a single-user system. It's a multi-user system, designed to allow you to have multiple people using a single computer without interfering with each other. Johnny logs out, his sister Sally logs in, and now the computer presents itself to Sally as if Johnny's files don't exist at all.

With programs dumping their save and config files into their own folder, you get "contamination" between the users. Let's say, for example, that Johnny is colorblind, so he has all his config files for a given game set up to avoid colors that he can't distinguish. Sally is not colorblind, and she discovers this game and wants to play too, but she doesn't like the colors Johnny chose, so she returns everything to defaults and saves the settings.

Now, when Johnny goes back to this game, he'll have to change all the settings back to his way, and Sally will have to do the same, and so on and so forth. They end up getting into some good old-fashioned sibling fights and cause tension and stress in the household.

Now, if that program had been *properly* saving settings per-user in the user's own directory, Sally's settings wouldn't overwrite Johnny's, and they could peacefully coexist on the same system, never the twain shall meet. When Johnny goes off to college and gets a new computer, he installs the game, copies his user directory (or uses Windows Easy Transfer!) and all his settings are preserved.

"Well, why don't you have per-user settings saved inside the program's folder?" is the next question. The answer is because then it's harder on the program developer to get things right. The Windows SDK makes it "easy" to get things right--you just ask where you should store the data for that user, it tells you, and you save stuff there. Sure, it's somewhat harder than just saving something to a path relative to the executable, but it respects user settings and is the "right" thing to do.

The registry also serves a different purpose, of providing a single place to store simple settings without cluttering your disk with numerous config files that may all have different formats and conventions.

Hey, thanks for the thread link, i actually didn't knew the ClearType is sucking so much FPS.

 

[Cras]

XP cannot compete with Win 7. Vista, sure you have a valid argument in picking XP over Vista, but not Win 7. XP has older drivers ,since hardware companies no longer are investing in developing new drivers for XP, Microsoft has long since dropped support for XP. Windows 7 is what Vista shoud have been, and the claim that XP is the only Windows OS worth while no longer holds any weight.

And here are a few pics I have of flying in FSX:

 

[Pyromaniac605]

People who are serious about computers have moved from Windows in general some time ago

It's nice that you think that... but you're wrong, windows is still far better than other OSs for gaming... :dry:

 

[Keatah]

ClearType is basically tedious anti-aliasing for text.

 

[Hielor]

ClearType is basically tedious anti-aliasing for text.

Cleartype is basically making text smooth and readable on LCD screens.

 

[ghostrunner01]

Cleartype is basically making text smooth and readable on LCD screens.

+1:thumbup:

 

[RisingFury]

Programs shouldn't need to save to Program Files once installed anyway. If you follow the Windows App guidelines then saved data should go in your home folder (or somewhere underneath there). Saved data shouldn't be saved in Program Files.

Orbiter ignores a lot of these rules.

Yes, let's break compatibility with thousands of existing programs to enforce someone's pet peeve, and then dump everything into My Documents.:facepalm:


Do I have to ask permission from Microsoft, so I can be in charge of my own computer?

 

[elephantium]

Yes, let's break compatibility with thousands of existing programs to enforce someone's pet peeve, and then dump everything into My Documents.:facepalm:


Do I have to ask permission from Microsoft, so I can be in charge of my own computer?

No.

...they'll never grant that permission

 

[Hielor]

Yes, let's break compatibility with thousands of existing programs to enforce someone's pet peeve, and then dump everything into My Documents.:facepalm:


Do I have to ask permission from Microsoft, so I can be in charge of my own computer?

I agree that the UAC method of breaking apps wasn't the best idea; however, the point stands that apps that were broken by this were not following the conventions that had been established several years before.

No, you don't need to ask permission from Microsoft. Just disable UAC if you want to use the program files directory for something other than its intended purpose.

 

[elephantium]

I agree that the UAC method of breaking apps wasn't the best idea; however, the point stands that apps that were broken by this were not following the conventions that had been established several years before.

No, you don't need to ask permission from Microsoft. Just disable UAC if you want to use the program files directory for something other than its intended purpose.

I'm still running stuff that was published in 1998. It was the "intended purpose" of Program Files changing from version to version that breaks them, not their failure to "follow conventions" -- unless you have a time machine for the developers, that is

 

[Keatah]

I have to say that Windows, despite all its shortcomings is indeed the best of the breed when everything is factored in.

The most important thing in an OS is that people understand how to use it. Windows is pervasive and interwoven into society quite thoroughly. And everybody develops for it.

I considered OSX and Solaris and freeBSD and Linux and Unix and derivatives as Windows replacements. Then there are the older gigs in town such as DOS and Amiga OS, Intuition, GEM, MINIX, CTSS, OS/2, and so on and so forth.

It would seem that only Windows is versatile enough to fit the widest variety of roles. Whereas all other OSes tend to excel at one type of application or niche environment.