Orbiter Shuttle Sim

[Hielor]

Orb:Connect repeater/reciever. Doesn't exist(yet), and I don't know if O:C has all the commands needed to update enough ship status to (seamlessly) duplicate one in another Orbiter instance.

I suspect this is almost possible (if not efficient) already. Since we know that the networks will be local rather than over the internet, we don't have to solve the latency issue that true multiplayer addons do. Communication will also only be one-way.

I think, if the two instances of Orbiter are already synced in terms of MJD, the VesselStatus structure would be enough to update a remote copy. It's kind of big, but with good hardware you can probably crank it to 20Hz, which would probably be enough to look decent out the side windows. I was also considering that you could set up a special UDP socket just for this purpose, so that Orb:Connect would just broadcast the data out to the network once, and any clients who care can then read it.

Unfortunately, I haven't had time to do any more design or testing than that, but there's my thoughts in case someone else wants to pick up on them. I was planning on getting to it sometime in the beginning of the new year, after all the chaos around graduation and moving is settled out.

 

[BHawthorne]

I suspect this is almost possible (if not efficient) already. Since we know that the networks will be local rather than over the internet, we don't have to solve the latency issue that true multiplayer addons do. Communication will also only be one-way.

I think, if the two instances of Orbiter are already synced in terms of MJD, the VesselStatus structure would be enough to update a remote copy. It's kind of big, but with good hardware you can probably crank it to 20Hz, which would probably be enough to look decent out the side windows. I was also considering that you could set up a special UDP socket just for this purpose, so that Orb:Connect would just broadcast the data out to the network once, and any clients who care can then read it.

Unfortunately, I haven't had time to do any more design or testing than that, but there's my thoughts in case someone else wants to pick up on them. I was planning on getting to it sometime in the beginning of the new year, after all the chaos around graduation and moving is settled out.

It would definitely be a worthy addition. Overall if it gets worked on sometime in the next few months that'd be great. None of us are needing the capability in short order, but there'll probably be some milestone deadlines to meet on the camp build in order for it to get integrated in time. That's not an immediate thing imho though.

IMHO a lan repeater setup could work great in this type of setup.


-----Post Added-----

Eric also has seconds from time-to-time at considerably less cost, which is how I got mine. Perhaps an opportunity for that begging thing I mentioned earlier Depending on how complex the flight deck is, you could probably do it with less than 100 guards. Molding would be less expensive, but you'll have to pick a material that can stand up to a lot of abuse. I may have missed it, but didn't see any switch guards in the Space Camp picture; there may be a reason. . .

I'd like to see the unit cost drop to about $1 per or less. The only way that's gonna occur is to research casting and molding options. I could CNC a custom mold for it and do RTM or Injection molding. I'd have to use a resin that is high impact resistant though. Metallic pigment is easy to find, so it'll look gunmetal gray. Not to knock Prehilion Design, they brought a $800 titanium design down to a $12 alunimium design. I would prefer seeing a $1 RTM casting resin design though.

 

[landon2006]

but there'll probably be some milestone deadlines to meet on the camp build in order for it to get integrated in time. That's not an immediate thing imho though.

We still don't have a tentative date that the camp will open. I would like a summer 09 opening, but rather that happens or not depends on rather we can secure property, build what needs to be built in time and get all the Sims up and working, as well as staff properly trained. To open for June dates, that would give us about 6 months to get everything in order, which may or may not work.

The Board of Directors wants to start the camp in Winter of 09, and do a week-long "Christmas Camp" for each program to start off the camp. I really don't care much for the idea myself, and don't see a rather large enrollment during the Christmas school break, as you would in Summer.
Although, Space Camp does a winter camp on all of there programs, so maybe it would work?

Either way, we need plenty of time to get the word out about the camp, and to get enrollment. I still, however, cannot advertise for the camp because A) We don't have a location and B) We don't know exactly when it will be open... We have to clear up A before we can find out B.

Rather we get the property I mentioned earlier will depend on what they will want as a down payment, and what the terms are. Land Price's here in the Bloomington area hover around about $10,000 an acre, even out of town! If they want to much, we may have to move further south, where land is much cheaper.

I really don't like the idea of setting it up in a "temp" location. While this would work, and would allow us to start the camp very soon for less money, it means everything will have to be portable, and the location will have to be In-Town, as we cannot do a residential camp in a facility that is not designed for one... It could only be a day camp.

Overall, as fare as shuttle design goes, we need the basics to work by the time we open. Such things as fancy views, etc can be added as time goes on, as they have no real "required" value in the Simulation.

Also, I think I'm going to turn the job of Museum Director over to someone else, and focus my time on this camp instead. Doing both and working my regular job at the same is not leaving enough time to get things done right. Plus, I want to be more activly involved in the camp when it does start, and being a director of 2 business's make it hard to have any time to do much other than paperwork and paychecks all day.

 

[BHawthorne]

While not free, this DVD-ROM has everything you what to know.

Amazon.com: America's Space Shuttle: Complete Set of NASA Astronaut Training Manuals and Major NASA STS Documents (DVD-ROM): World Spaceflight News: Books

Zerofay32

I find CD compilation of PDFs a bit dubious. I would only buy this if I was 100% certain it just wasn't a website rip of www.shuttlepresskit.com. Can anyone confirm/deny the content? Beings that the content of this CD is government public domain documents, imho if someone already has a CD of this it's legal to share the documents. It would have to be a goldmine of information before I'd fork out $40. Ofcourse, if it had dimentioned technical drawings of the flight deck and mid-deck in it, it would be worth $40 to me.

 

[landon2006]

Edit:

After looking around Orbiter a little bit... I found that it would be very cool to have a view outside the cock-pit into the virtual payload bay. Also, having separate controls for the payload operator at the back should be implemented if possible (Joystick and buttons, switches control arm, cargo bay doors, etc).

If we could implement this somehow, that would defiantly work well for us. That way, one of the shorter missions could be to launch a satellite into space.

Edit: Yeah, I probably will not pay $40 for that CD. I found a lot of information in the press kit, as well as some cock-pit drawings on another website.

 

[BHawthorne]

I'm in the process of ripping out all the vectorized panel art from the scom pdf in Illustrator. That vector art if cleaned up could run cutting toolpaths to cnc the panels. Getting all those panels in vector form is the first step in seeing real panel parts. The spring semester I'll probably be taking 1 or 2 more manufacturing engineering courses so I'll have access to the school 48x48" waterjet to cut panels all semester. I'm also building a MechMate 5x10ft router table but that is a few months away from cutting chips. I'd imagine in 3-4 months some cool stuff will start to be coming together on my build.


-----Post Added-----

After looking around Orbiter a little bit... I found that it would be very cool to have a view outside the cock-pit into the virtual payload bay. Also, having separate controls for the payload operator at the back should be implemented if possible (Joystick and buttons, switches control arm, cargo bay doors, etc).

If we could implement this somehow, that would defiantly work well for us. That way, one of the shorter missions could be to launch a satellite into space.

Yep, that was my thoughts a few days ago while messing with SSU a bit. One would think all the switches and control stick, remote manipulator arm included could run off the main machine, but have slave machines doing those 4 port windows.

 

[simonpro]

All the documents are available online, mainly through NASAspaceflight.com
(as much as I hate that site it's better than paying for a crummy DVD )

 

[landon2006]

I think I came up with a decision on the number of shuttles. For the first season of the camp, I would suggest we focus all our energy and resources on one shuttle Sim. Later down the road, possibly next season, we could implement the second shuttle, to increase capacity.

This way, we can have the money to make our first shuttle REALLY good, instead of two mediocre shuttles.

What I would like to have as well are some fighter jet Simulator cock-pits as well, maybe 2 or so. This way, campers in the pilot track will be able to practice jet flying skills before taking control of the more complicated shuttle. I don't think these would cost a huge amount of money, and don't have to be outfitted like a palace.

Anyway, have a good night... er.. Morning now

PS) Brad, you seem to be very smart when it comes to engineering. Perhaps you can help us with another dilemma, unrelated to the Shuttle Sim pit. We have decided we can save money by NOT buying the Multi-Axis Trainer and G Force Simulator from a dealer.

Perhaps you might be able to give us some insight in your spare time into how difficult these would be to build?

Basically, here is a picture of what the G Force Simulator should look like:


Here is a video of what the Multi-Axis Trainer would look like, once constructed:

My problem with buying these things outright is that for the Multi-Axis Trainer, they want almost $9,000! To me, it does not look like anywhere near $9,000 worth of material... Not $1,000 to me anyway. The G Force Simulator, which was a different design from the above, was going to cost us $11,000.00 (It was basically one of the"spinning UFO" fair ride type things).

Any idea how difficult these might be to get contructed without paying $20,000 for the both of them?

Thanks!

 

[lockingtoggle]

Any idea how difficult these might be to get contructed without paying $20,000 for the both of them?

By paying that price you pay the right to blame them in case of an accident. If you plan to let kids use that stuff, I strongly recomend you use professionally build hardware.

 

[BHawthorne]

The liability issues scare me off a bit on those 2 things. I definitely have some ideas on how to make something like that, but would rather defer to other sources for those items. I'm sure there are more affordable versions of those things available and even probably people what would scratch build them for you. I'd rather not get myself into liability issues with those 2 projects though. As is, the shuttle design is going to be a lot of work.

About the fighter jet sims. Keeping with the theme of NASA I would suggest T-38 simpits. I have the information from NASM on what technical drawing microfilm is available for the T-38A. There have been a few people that have also made T-38 simpits. My personal experience with fighter jet simpits is limited to my F-84F that I own though. I would also be willing to help with the T-38 simpits. I have a peronsal interest in having a T-38 simpit to be flown with FighterOps at a later date.

 

[yagni01]

The liability issues scare me off a bit on those 2 things. I definitely have some ideas on how to make something like that, but would rather defer to other sources for those items. I'm sure there are more affordable versions of those things available and even probably people what would scratch build them for you. I'd rather not get myself into liability issues with those 2 projects though. As is, the shuttle design is going to be a lot of work.

Agreed. Unless you have a good fab shop and full engineering drawings by a reputable engineering firm, you want to source these from a good manufacturer. Check with your insurance underwriter about all of this stuff, as they will have a lot of questions. This also goes for all the flight decks. You want them to look and feel professional, not home-built. Its the museums reputation as well as the camps on the line. The parents have to be impressed, not the kids.

 

[Hielor]

About the fighter jet sims. Keeping with the theme of NASA I would suggest T-38 simpits. I have the information from NASM on what technical drawing microfilm is available for the T-38A. There have been a few people that have also made T-38 simpits. My personal experience with fighter jet simpits is limited to my F-84F that I own though. I would also be willing to help with the T-38 simpits. I have a peronsal interest in having a T-38 simpit to be flown with FighterOps at a later date.

During my USA co-op last spring, I got to take a run on the fixed-base T-38 simulator there. I have a few grainy cell-phone-camera shots of the thing, and can give more details to anyone interested. Getting them uploaded will be a PITA, but I'll get started on it after dropping my dad off at the airport.

I also have a couple of (even worse) pictures of the inside of the motion-base shuttle simulator. They're pretty worthless though, as one of them is pretty much just the back of a chair, and the other one was taken while we were lying on our backs during a launch sim, with the thing frantically shaking everywhere...

Edit: Here's one of the shuttle sim pictures. This isn't one of the two I was referring to above, and I didn't actually take this one (as evidenced by me being visible standing in it), but here:

 

[landon2006]

also have a couple of (even worse) pictures of the inside of the motion-base shuttle simulator.

Hielor's post reminds me of something... motion based simulators. Obviously, that would be the cream of the crop to have the shuttle Sim on a motion base.

I'm not sure of the cost of such a motion base, or how much weight it would need to support (based on the total weight of the shuttle). I'm willing to bet, a motion base will probably be at least $10,000 on the cheap end of thing... Dunno for sure though.

Agreed. Unless you have a good fab shop and full engineering drawings by a reputable engineering firm, you want to source these from a good manufacturer.

Well, the issue comes in that the $9,000 models are "self-driven". In essence, its based on gravity, with no mechanical motors. However, after looking around at all the video's, the motor driven models like the one in the video look better suited to our need. Problem is, finding a place that actually "manufactures" these things is running on 0%. For the most part, the gravity driven ones are sold by a few manufacturers, sold as gym equipment called the "Gyro-Gym".

I'm guessing that I probably will have to have a machine shop custom build the rig, as that seems to be how all the rigs that are motorized get their start. Since there is no real market for a powered, multi-axis trainer, no one "makes them" for commercial needs .

I'll talk to a few of the "hobby" builders of these and see if they have any ideas on how to get one made and operational.

One the G Force Simulator, I think we will stick with the "Gravitron"UFO ride base. That is what Space Camp uses, and it really produces the best "G force effect for the money. Obviously, a real Centerafuge would be great, at a price tag of $50,000 +, its out of our price range.

You want them to look and feel professional, not home-built. Its the museums reputation as well as the camps on the line. The parents have to be impressed, not the kids.

Don't worry... I'm a perfectionist. If something is not looking professional, it will before anyone see's it. I have experiance as a carpenter, so building the actual sims should not be hard once I have the design blueprints to do it by.

Check with your insurance underwriter about all of this stuff, as they will have a lot of questions.

The camp will be using a different insurance agency than the Museum. I have already established talks with them on the project, and according to them, as long as everything meets state codes, their happy. That of course means that the motion-based sims will have to have an operation licsence from the state board of amusements, and the actual sim-pit builds will probably fall under jurisdiction of the county building office.

I'd rather not get myself into liability issues with those 2 projects though. As is, the shuttle design is going to be a lot of work.

Thats fine Brad, I just thought I would ask . You have been more than kind enough to help out of the shuttle builds.

bout the fighter jet sims. Keeping with the theme of NASA I would suggest T-38 simpits. I have the information from NASM on what technical drawing microfilm is available for the T-38A. There have been a few people that have also made T-38 simpits. My personal experience with fighter jet simpits is limited to my F-84F that I own though. I would also be willing to help with the T-38 simpits. I have a peronsal interest in having a T-38 simpit to be flown with FighterOps at a later date.

I really have no knowlege in terms of fighter jets, so you'll have the upper hand here. I'll look into the T-38... But if that is what you suggest, I say go we go for it. We probably would only need to build 2 of these, and they would really need to be under $1,000 each if possible.

I had also though we could run the jet sims on Orbiter with the delta glider, but I like the idea of having an actual fighter jet to train in rather than a fictional spacecraft.

If you would be willing to help on this as well, that would be appreciated! Based on what I have seen, Flight Simulator X would probably be the software for the jet sims... Unless anyone had any other suggestions?


-----Post Added-----


I would also like to add that we want a Shuttle Simulator in the Museum as well. I talked this over today with several of the board members. Really, a "Space Science" museum is lacking in terms of "Hands on activities", and this would be a perfect addition to the museum. This shuttle Sim would not need to be connected to a lower deck, and would only be a small flight-deck area, containing two seats.

We also are looking into other hands-on activities for the museum, including some other simulators.

Another thing Is that I talked to the people today about the property south of town. WAY TO MUCH MONEY. They want a total payoff of $450,000 for 14 acres of mostly wooded land. They also want 20% down, which is not doable for us in any way.

As such, we are again looking at locating the museum and space academy in the same facility once more. This will allow both the academy and the museum to share certain simulators, including the G force Simulator.

This might of course mean moving back to a "mainly local" day-camp, but I think this is the idea we are starting to get at.

 

[Hielor]

I've posted the T-38 and Shuttle pics I have in the "Reference Photos: T-38 and Shuttle" thread in this forum.

 

[landon2006]

Also, from what I'm gathering from this "Sol7" software, it's cost is $4,000 per channel. So our actual cost will be $8,000 to license the software for the 3D Theater (Museum) and 1 Shuttle Sim. If we ad another shuttle Sim, we have to come up with another $4,000 license.

Am I wrong in this? That'w how it is explained over at floridamusicco:

Licensing works on a per channel basis.(1 video channel = price).
Discounts available for multiple channels.
This price is for system integrators (installers of video devises for commercial purposes)
Sol7-AVM annual maintenance which is optional (but highly recommended) that covers email support and all minor and major upgrades.

$4,000 per channel is ridiculous. These people Siriusly need some market competition...

 

[BHawthorne]

As far as I know it's 1 liscense per computer. If they require 1 per video out on the commercial setup you do a simple fix by using a Matrox DualHead2Go and split the video to two projectors outside of the computer. That way it is only one video out at the time it goes through Sol7. No worries there.

With the comments about Sol7, you might be confused how surround-screen 3D works. The computer generally has to believe or be tricked into thinking it's pushing to a single very wide display. All these multi-mon options -- TH2G, DH2G and XP span-modes the computer thinks it's just one big monitor. this is a limitation of windows that everyone has to work around to do multi-moniter in 3D. 2D displays work independantly of eachother though. Think of 3D as needing one big canvas to paint on, but 2D can paint on as many canvases as there are video outs. You can mixs and match 3D and 2D as needed on any computer, but generally speaking -- 1 big 3D canvas and as many 2D canvases as needed. The outside viduals would be in the 3D canvas while all the multifunction displays in the cockpit would be driven in 2D canvases. Hope that makes sense.

If you think Sol7 pricing is crazy, you should see all the other options. It gets exponentially worse and they start adding in priorietary hardware. I truely believe that OVP could have these pre-warp type capabilities added to it. Just need to get OVP devs motivated on the idea.

I would suggest FS9 or FSX initially for the T-38 sims. Those can be used in multi-player and interact online with the world. 1 or 2 years down the road I suggest a switch over to using FighterOps for the sim software though. It's still in development but will be the premiere simpit fighter simulation. In it's initial release they'll have the most complete T-38C and T-6A simulation available.

FighterOps:

Pic of the astronaut taxi:

While the T-38 is a 2 seater, I suggest just doing the front seat for the simpits.

 

[landon2006]

I'm just saying... In general... $4,000 for any software is crazy. but it's the world.... Oh well.

As fare as the 3D Theater goes, I really don't know rather I will incorporate a curved effect into it or not. Basically, it will operate like an IMAX 3D Theater. There will be 4 projectors, Basically, each set of 2 will be polarized in different directions, That will incorporate with the polarized 3D glasses used by the patrons.

Basically, the 3D Animated films that will be show will be "shot" virtually with 2 cameras, offset slightly.

Overall, it will be the exact same effect you would get in an IMAX Theater 3D film, only projected digitally on a smaller screen. Question comes in, do we want a "wrap around" screen? This would be cool, and would add to the immersion factor for the audience, but cost comes into play with this. Considering the cost of the warping software... Really though, the $4,000 software would be the cheapest part of the setup... My estimated expense for the Theater alone in $65,000.

I also had in mind Microsoft's flight simulator for the jet sims...

 

[BHawthorne]

You really don't need a seamless curved screen. You can project triple flat screen and achieve 90% the same effect.

A random example pic from mycockpit's photo gallery:

-----Post Added-----


For the dome projection I suggest looking at Paul Bouke's website:

http://local.wasp.uwa.edu.au/~pbourke/miscellaneous/

He has the tools there for dome projection for Macintosh based computers. You can convert your own video and run it with his dome pre-warp software on the macintosh side of things. There is no windows version of his setup, but the OS it runs to achieve it is irrelevant imho as long as it works. Also there are some plaetarium apps that have dome pre-warp built into them too that are shareware or freeware.

Back on the shuttle build. There is no real reason why OVP couldn't encorporate circular and dome projection prewarp settings. It's a matter of merely implementing the camera code.

 

[landon2006]

The 3-Panel projection had never crossed my mind, even though I knew it existed. I don't know why this would not work. Not only would it be a much simpler build, but also more cost effective.

In fact, if the shuttle windows are designed right, the meeting points of the screens could be (mostly) masked from view inside the shuttle.

:speakcool: Idea Brad!

Either way, it cant be as bad the shuttle Sim @ Space Camp. Last time I went I think they used low-res monitors, that where very unrealistic in relation to the actual windows in the cockpit.

 

[Arrowstar]

Either way, it cant be as bad the shuttle Sim @ Space Camp. Last time I went I think they used low-res monitors, that where very unrealistic in relation to the actual windows in the cockpit.

As a three time Space Camp alumni (1 Academy, 2 ASA), I can tell you that the graphics used on those sims are definitely not the best. Enterprise especially never looked all that great. There are certainly some things that could be upgraded visually. But, also keep in mind that when you're 16 years old and totally psyched for your Extended Duration Mission, it really doesn't matter what anything looks like, it's still cool.