Orbiter Shuttle Sim

[tblaxland]

Also, is it possible to get rid of the HUD and other text, etc on the main screen? obviously, this would not look very realistic if it was projected onto the "sky" outside...

Pressing 'I' will toggle the other on-screen info on & off(date/time, camera target/mode).

 

[yagni01]

I was doing a little more exploring in Orbiter... I have a new question. Is it possible to completely disable the on screen MFD's by some means other than the "Power" feature, and still have them usable? For instance, how can we make then disappear from the main screen, which will be what is projected, and instead show them on the MFD screens built into the cockpit?

Also, is it possible to get rid of the HUD and other text, etc on the main screen? obviously, this would not look very realistic if it was projected onto the "sky" outside...

Thanks,

Yes.

You can hide the HUD with a keypress or remotely via Orb:Connect. You can hide the 2D panels by using the up arrow.

Until devlopers can duplicate MFDs to run on remote computers (like hielors RemoteMFD), the only way I know of to display MFDs on other monitors is ExtMFD, which comes with Orbiter. By using AutoHotKey, you can set up a single keypress to open and position it with one key chord. There's an example on the wiki of a scriptI use to position four on a secondary 22" monitor.

Depending on how many, I would try using either a dual-head graphcis card like the 9800 with one output going to the external view and the other going to a TH2G driving monitors through a video splitter to duplicate the MFDs at the CDR and PLT positions, or multiple video cards.

 

[BHawthorne]

Depending on how many, I would try using either a dual-head graphcis card like the 9800 with one output going to the external view and the other going to a TH2G driving monitors through a video splitter to duplicate the MFDs at the CDR and PLT positions, or multiple video cards.

It's more cost effective to use secondary cards. TH2G is a waste of budget unless you really call for 3 projectors instead of 2. You can buy 8800GS/9600GSO for $50 anymore. That's plenty of card for external MFDs. Just horizontal-span on the better card for the external view pano. With a tri slot mobo like the 680i or 780i/790i. You can push a bunch of extra MDFs without any need of expending $300 for a TH2G. Just Drop in 2 8800GS/9600GSO in the 2 spare slots. It makes more sense to spend $100 total for the 2 other cards than $300 for a box. Besides you would have 6 video outs in this configuration instead of just 4 with the TH2G setup.


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Looking through the several Shuttle simpit builds, the engineer in me wonders where the panel dimentions are coming from? Are they "eyeballed" or is there a proper technical drawing with scale someplace? I have the sts presskit manuals but those have no scale in them. My priority is to nail the dimentions of the real thing for the general plan release before tinkering with the specialized builds for this project.

 

[yagni01]

It's more cost effective to use secondary cards. TH2G is a waste of budget unless you really call for 3 projectors instead of 2. You can buy 8800GS/9600GSO for $50 anymore. That's plenty of card for external MFDs. Just horizontal-span on the better card for the external view pano. With a tri slot mobo like the 680i or 780i/790i. You can push a bunch of extra MDFs without any need of expending $300 for a TH2G. Just Drop in 2 8800GS/9600GSO in the 2 spare slots. It makes more sense to spend $100 total for the 2 other cards than $300 for a box. Besides you would have 6 video outs in this configuration instead of just 4 with the TH2G setup.

You have a point about using multiple cards. I've been surfing the web, though, and can't find the cards that cheap. Where are you shopping?

Looking through the several Shuttle simpit builds, the engineer in me wonders where the panel dimentions are coming from? Are they "eyeballed" or is there a proper technical drawing with scale someplace? I have the sts presskit manuals but those have no scale in them. My priority is to nail the dimentions of the real thing for the general plan release before tinkering with the specialized builds for this project.

Todd and I used the technique mentioned on the wiki by scaling off a 'known' dimension, so they are eyeballed.

 

[BHawthorne]

You have a point about using multiple cards. I've been surfing the web, though, and can't find the cards that cheap. Where are you shopping?

Todd and I used the technique mentioned on the wiki by scaling off a 'known' dimension, so they are eyeballed.

vvvvv I have access to EVGA B-stock. EVGA has thier step-up program, where they take trade-ins of hardware within 90 days of purchase and you just pay the difference. That B-Stock is used for RMA exchanges and sometime is sold off in batches when they have too much on hand. All b-stock is certified ok before it leaves EVGA. I use all b-stock in my simpit hardware at the moment. Worst case a video card might have regular wear cosmetic issues, but for simpit that has 0 consequence. Both mobos and video cards are available there. http://stores.ebay.com/The-EVGA-Store_W0QQcolZ4QQdirZ1QQfsubZQ2d999QQftidZ2QQtZkm

I suppose the going off of known dimentions is ok. The more known to go off of the better though.

Edit: Looks like they're currently out of 8800GS atm in thier b-stock listing. They routinely update stock though. I currently have 4 8800GS cards from there. I also have 2 8800GTS. I use my current simpit hardware as a folding@home GPU2 farm until I get to the point where I can install the hardware into a sim. That way it's doing some good and I also know it's thoroughly stress tested.

 

[landon2006]

Hello again guys...
On the topic of computer specs... I have several years of PC technician experience, and I have almost always dealt with ATI in terms of video cards. This is not so much because I think they are better, just because I have become accostume to there specs.

However, from what I'm seeing, the Geforce cards are cheaper in price terms. I have never dealth with SLI before, only Crossfire... So I'm unsure how that process works.

Basically, the cards that I would think would be great are the EVGA Geforce 8500GT. It runs $40 new at Tigerdirect.com, and feature 1 GB of RAM and PCIexpress connection, as well as dual output. The Max Res on this card is 2560 x 1600, which should be plenty for 2 projectors... I have not yet decided on rather we should go with 2 widescreen projectors, or 2 4:3 projectors yet. Obviously, the Widescreen would provide more wrap around image than the 4:3, and I am really looking at going this route.

Also, I talked to several of the Board Members on the phone today. I have enough approaval to form the committee. I'm trying to figure out the best format for the committee. Since members will be spread-out, meetings will likly take place via chat room's over on our space Academy forums, which I'm still trying to work the kinks out of and get setup.

Once I have a more stable chat room and forum, I'll let you guys know here, and those who want to join in on the committee can go over there and sign up for an account.

Right now, you can visit the forums, and sign-up for an account if you like, but there is currently no boards showing, as I'm still trying to figure out how this PHPbb board works...

Forum Website is: http://forum.spaceacademy.us

I also have another question: Is it possible to get a wrap-around display via projectors without Sol7 type software? I'm guessing it would be VERY distorted?


Also, does anyone here know were I can find some offical NASA documents on the Space Shuttle? Such as diagrams, and how to actually fly a real one? I have searched around a bit, but have had no luck. I heard there was a "Space Shuttle Manual" of some kind...

 

[BHawthorne]

You want to at least use G80 or G92 based cards. The 8500GT is not good enough performance to do what is needed. Perferably a GTX260 for the single main external view. SLI doesn't come into play in multi-mon, so nothing to really worry about there. You are using multiple 16x PCIe slot mobos though to achieve multi-mon, which typically is SLI or Crossfire mobos. I have extensive multi-mon gaming experience and would really suggest not using ATI based cards because they simply don't work right with the Matrox boxes at many resolutions. Multi-mon builds have been traditionally nVidia bias and it's where my extensive background is. While you could use ATI based builds, you run into more issues on multi-mon than with nVidia based builds.

 

[landon2006]

Yeah... Staying with Nvidia will be fine. I only ever use ATI just because I'm use to them... I have nothing against Nvidia.

 

[BHawthorne]

The delima with Sol7 is that the more curvature you use on the screen the worse it'll end up looking unless pre-warped. With the immersion-factor the whole reasoning behind going circular screen, it really should use some type of pre-warp or the effect just won't get pulled off right.

I'll grid out a flowchart in the next 24 hours of what I'd envision of the core hardware for the simpit to give you an idea of my thought process and a bit of insight on how it could proceed as far as hardware build.


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Another thing to think about with pre-warping is that it will afford you to be able to mount the projectors a lot more arbitrarily in the build. Just set them to roughly project over their half of the screen from any angle and tweak it in Sol7 to look flawless. Without prewarping you run into some very specific projection positioning issues and even then you can't compenaste for screen curvature.

 

[landon2006]

how would you pre-warp this image before it gets into Sol7?

 

[BHawthorne]

how would you pre-warp this image before it gets into Sol7?

Sorry about being confusing.

Sol7 = pre-warping. It's what it does.


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I have the above in letter sized print-resolution PDF if you want an email of it. Depending upon what needs to be still interfaced in the build, you'd probably only need one more computer for remote views like the manipulator arm aft panel and ceiling window views. Probably only need 2 9600GSO on that build though to complete the needs of the visuals. That means it can be any old 2 slot SLI mobo. I can build up a comperable chart for that comp too tomorrow.

 

[landon2006]

Thanks,
A PDF copy would be great! E-mail address is
director at spaceacademy . us

Looks like a good setup. I'm currently doing some budget-plans for the entire program, and that helps in the area of hardware cost.

Also, got it on the sol7. I was just slightly confused there for a while.

 

[BHawthorne]

Here is a pic of the switch guard I got in the mail the other day. The design is really straight forward. It can easily be made in quantity via molding.

You might talk with a few of the others about the keyboard switch encoder matrix board. I've not used any of those before and don't know what would be the best suited for this build and budget. It's just a breakout board that plugs into usb and wires in all your switches and analog gauges. You can also custom wire in scratch built control sticks to it depending upon what type of board(s) used.

BTW: In the computer flowchart, the 9600GSO and the 8800GS are 100% the same card. You can interchange 8800GS and 9600GSO as needed. Whatever is more cost effective.

 

[tblaxland]

E-mail address is

Just a tip, you might want to edit your post to obfuscate that address for the spam bots that might come crawling (eg, write it in full words like "somebody at somedomain dot com") or even better save email addresses for PMs

 

[landon2006]

Thanks for the heads up tblaxland. Modified. It had never crossed my mind actually. My Webhost has a very good Spam filter though... In order to receive mail in my inbox, you have to submit an email, then reply to another e-mail sent back. Pretty neat.


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ceiling window views.

So this is possible? Having views out into space available in real time in remote areas of the flight deck? That would be neat, and ultra realistic.

Here is a pic of the switch guard I got in the mail the other day

How much did you pay for this?

 

[BHawthorne]

It might be very cool to also think about a single dedicated computer that does nothing but capture mission video from several web-cams in the simpit and control room. Highlights of the missions could be edited into a DVD that camp participants could bring home. Once you have the first one done just use that as the template for all consecutive camps after it.


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So this is possible? Having views out into space available in real time in remote areas of the flight deck? That would be neat, and ultra realistic.


How much did you pay for this?

The OrbConnect devs were mentioning earlier remote view slave computers. It's on the wish list. I would like to see the shuttle build drive the need for a few things in OrbConnect like this and the mission control stations.

The switch guard is $12, which is too costly to buy in quanitity, hence why I'm talking about molds. All this stuff looks like it'll go into my build too so there are incentives for me to work out cost effective solutions.

 

[landon2006]

It might be very cool to also think about a single dedicated computer that does nothing but capture mission video from several web-cams in the simpit and control room. Highlights of the missions could be edited into a DVD that camp participants could bring home. Once you have the first one done just use that as the template for all consecutive camps after it.

I already beat ya to that one Brad. I didn't think about the DVD thing, but I had thought it would be neat to broadcast the video feed live over the internet, so the parents and friends can watch real time.

DVD idea is good though as well... Give them something permanent (somewhat anyway) to look back on.

In my mind, I had cameras recording into the flightdeck, Mission Control and the Space Station (a total of 6 cameras). I am however unsure how to broadcast that many video feeds at the same time, over the internet... I'll have to work that kink out.

DVD version can be edited via an editing template.

The switch guard is $12, which is too costly to buy in quanitity

:crazy: Wow... $12. Yeah, we'll need some other way to make them cheaper to produce. Not sure exact numbers we'll need, but at that price.... Wow.

 

[BHawthorne]

DVD idea is good though as well... Give them something permanent (somewhat anyway) to look back on.

In my mind, I had cameras recording into the flightdeck, Mission Control and the Space Station (a total of 6 cameras). I am however unsure how to broadcast that many video feeds at the same time, over the internet... I'll have to work that kink out.

DVD version can be edited via an editing template.


:crazy: Wow... $12. Yeah, we'll need some other way to make them cheaper to produce. Not sure exact numbers we'll need, but at that price.... Wow.

Yep, and will go a long way as word of mouth promotion. I would bet the DVDs would get passed around families to view. Think of it as another advertising resource. I would do just the opposite of regular DVDs -- put a disclaimer in that states copy and distribute this DVD all you want to.

My first degree was in graphic communications, which means I have non-linear desktop video production experience along with print media pre-press background. You could edit some pretty professional video in After Effects and Premiere.

There are a lot of challenges in the build, like these switch guards. The challenge of working out these issues are fun for me though.

 

[yagni01]

:crazy: Wow... $12. Yeah, we'll need some other way to make them cheaper to produce. Not sure exact numbers we'll need, but at that price.... Wow.

Eric also has seconds from time-to-time at considerably less cost, which is how I got mine. Perhaps an opportunity for that begging thing I mentioned earlier Depending on how complex the flight deck is, you could probably do it with less than 100 guards. Molding would be less expensive, but you'll have to pick a material that can stand up to a lot of abuse. I may have missed it, but didn't see any switch guards in the Space Camp picture; there may be a reason. . .


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So this is possible? Having views out into space available in real time in remote areas of the flight deck? That would be neat, and ultra realistic.

We touched on this earlier. Questions abound, and someone would have to experiment.

I see three possible approaches:
CameraMFD addon. Needs to run within Orbiter. Can't run in ExtMFD and don't know if you can have multiple instances running.

OMP. Never used it, so don't know if this is able in its current form to sync multiple instances of Orbiter to show external views of the same vessel.

Orb:Connect repeater/reciever. Doesn't exist(yet), and I don't know if O:C has all the commands needed to update enough ship status to (seamlessly) duplicate one in another Orbiter instance.


-----Post Added-----

Also, does anyone here know were I can find some offical NASA documents on the Space Shuttle? Such as diagrams, and how to actually fly a real one? I have searched around a bit, but have had no luck. I heard there was a "Space Shuttle Manual" of some kind...

http://www.shuttlepresskit.com/STS-103/scom.htm

The "Space Shuttle Operators Manual" is out-of-print (and 20 yrs out-of-date) but can be found for a few bucks. Its basically the highlights of the NASA docs.

There is also this: [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Americas-Space-Shuttle-Astronaut-Documents/dp/1592481698/ref=sr_1_11?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228671239&sr=8-11"]http://www.amazon.com/Americas-Space-Shuttle-Astronaut-Documents/dp/1592481698/ref=sr_1_11?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228671239&sr=8-11 [/ame]
which is a lot of stuff including photocopies of NASA manuals (including the SCOM above)

 

[zerofay32]

While not free, this DVD-ROM has everything you what to know.

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Americas-Space-Shuttle-Astronaut-Documents/dp/1592481698/ref=sr_1_13?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228671482&sr=1-13"]Amazon.com: America's Space Shuttle: Complete Set of NASA Astronaut Training Manuals and Major NASA STS Documents (DVD-ROM): World Spaceflight News: Books[/ame]

Zerofay32