Question NASSP - Any minimal checklists?

[Clavius0712]

Hi,

Yesterday I installed NASSP 7 Beta as I was really interested in using the virtual ACG. I started the Apollo 7 virtual AGC launch scenario but discovered I was something like 3 hours from launch and was facing having to go through a massive checklist of operations to perform.

Is there anyway to streamline this? For instance, some of the operations on the checklist are for things like testing that the warning lights work! Can't I just skip those checks?

If someone has a stripped down list of only the essential operations to perform in order to launch the Apollo 7 in virtual AGC mode, I would be very grateful.

 

[Tschachim]

Yes, try Project Apollo Checklist MFD. If you activate ProjectApolloMFD in the Launchpad dialog, it should be available in-game (additional to Project Apollo MFD). I'm not sure if/how it works in your version, so please try and report problems...

Cheers
Tschachim

 

[Usquanigo]

Hi,

Yesterday I installed NASSP 7 Beta as I was really interested in using the virtual ACG. I started the Apollo 7 virtual AGC launch scenario but discovered I was something like 3 hours from launch and was facing having to go through a massive checklist of operations to perform.

Is there anyway to streamline this? For instance, some of the operations on the checklist are for things like testing that the warning lights work! Can't I just skip those checks?

If someone has a stripped down list of only the essential operations to perform in order to launch the Apollo 7 in virtual AGC mode, I would be very grateful.

I had asked that same question (referring to checking dial readings which will always be the same, and if they aren't.... it's time to scrub the launch and re-start, so what would the point be in having them not be right? Plus if it's a historic launch, it has to be right because it has to go up on time, so that, plus all the warning light checks, really ought to be skippable. Plus, you have to do both the backup crew, and prime crew checks, which also wouldn't happen (as each crew did their own set of checks)) - but when I did, I was told to use the quick mode as VAGC was intended to be like that. Didn't make much sense to me really.

I do like the checklists and going through the steps, just that streamlining it to root out the unecessary stuff would be cool.

Having to use IMFD has put me off though, I'm afraid. When I eventually get around to using such tools, I may go back, but I tried following the steps and it just didn't work for me. IMFD is a mess. And I was REALLY hoping to be able to use the AGC for TLI. IMFD in that capsule just has a "cheating" feel to it.

But even still, it's a phenomenal project, and I know at some point I'll get around to firing it up again. I will have to try that checklist MFD out. Thanks.

 

[Clavius0712]

Yes, try Project Apollo Checklist MFD. If you activate ProjectApolloMFD in the Launchpad dialog, it should be available in-game (additional to Project Apollo MFD). I'm not sure if/how it works in your version, so please try and report problems...

Cheers
Tschachim

Hi Tschachim,

Thanks for pointing out those MFDs. I tried the Checklist MFD and whilst it does help a lot by showing you the checklist actually in the cockpit rather than having to use the windows key all the time to read an external PDF, I am still struggling.

The Checklist MFD seems to just regurgitate the information from the supporting documentation - i.e. tell you every damn check from even before the crew enter the vehicle. Whilst I'm sure it is all very interesting to instrumentation junkies, I really just want to know how to activate the essential systems to get the vehicle off the ground and not kill the crew in the process. It is also no good just saying use the QuickLaunch method because that doesn't have the virtual AGC, which is the key thing that makes NASSP different to AMSO.

I also tried the Auto mode of the Checklist MFD thinking this would somehow do the checks and operations for me, and while it does launch automatically, it doesn't actually perform all the operations. When I tried it and switched to external view, the CM hatch was still open!

Either we need a cut-down checklist to make this enjoyable rather than a chore, or we need an "auto" facility that actually flips switches and pushes buttons in the capsule rather than just pretending they have been.

 

[Usquanigo]

Clavius, give this a try - print out the checklist PDFs, go through it a time or 2 to get the feel for where things are and commit some of the process to memory (I'm getting the impression you've done that part), then go through the print outs and make some notes. You can eliminate quite a lot actually. I got to the point where I was about 45 minutes ahead of the countdown and was able to time accel and still get successful launches.

Then any time you go to launch, you can use your edited checklist, skipping over steps that you don't "need" to do, get ahead, use time accel, and launch quicker.

Another option might be to quick save a mission just before launch and dig through the .scn file. I would imagine the states would be in there (haven't looked) if it is to actually save it properly. Then you could just edit the .scn file of any mission you want to play with those settings, time accel to launch and go.

 

[Tschachim]

The Checklist MFD seems to just regurgitate the information from the supporting documentation - i.e. tell you every damn check from even before the crew enter the vehicle.

Well, it can a little bit more. If you press FLSH, the current switch is highlighted with a blinking yellow frame and if you switch it to the correct position, the checklist is advancing automatically (this is what is meant by AUTO here actually).

Whilst I'm sure it is all very interesting to instrumentation junkies, I really just want to know how to activate the essential systems to get the vehicle off the ground and not kill the crew in the process.

Well, there might be some misconception regarding "every damn check".

The checklists used by the MFD are in a "human readable" excel file, currently "Doc\Project Apollo - NASSP\Checklists\CSM Default Checklists.xls". In the lasted version there are about 150 steps until liftoff, the Backup Crew Prelaunch Checklist has about 85 steps. Besides the C&WS check and a few other checks (perhaps 20, remains 65) these ARE the essential steps already actually.

In the final, historically correct version the Backup Crew Prelaunch Checklist alone will have about 500 steps (last version I saw had 416).

Either we need a cut-down checklist to make this enjoyable rather than a chore, or we need an "auto" facility that actually flips switches and pushes buttons in the capsule rather than just pretending they have been.

Yes, the next beta will have the latter one, like in Quickstart Mode or with a few seconds delay between each step for demos. Together with the flash feature you can follow the checklists pretty well. I hope the next beta is ready in a couple of days, so stay tuned!

Cheers
Tschachim

 

[Clavius0712]

Well, it can a little bit more. If you press FLSH, the current switch is highlighted with a blinking yellow frame and if you switch it to the correct position, the checklist is advancing automatically (this is what is meant by AUTO here actually).

Wow that's really cool! I never noticed that. Perhaps my video settings are preventing the blinking yellow frame from appearing, or else I was just looking at the wrong panel. It would help if it actually zoomed to the panel as well if that's the case.

Yes, the next beta will have the latter one [auto-flipping of switches], like in Quickstart Mode or with a few seconds delay between each step for demos. Together with the flash feature you can follow the checklists pretty well.

I hope the next beta is ready in a couple of days, so stay tuned!

That is excellent news. I am really loving the virtual AGC built into control panel 2. I've been a programmer for 20 odd years and am really into things like emulations of older computers. I suppose it's a bit like aviation enthusiasts loving the old bi-planes at air displays. The virtual AGC has to be the focus of all NASSP development in my opinion. It's a pity there is only one scenario that uses it in the NASSP 7 Beta (as far as I can tell).

Thanks for all your help. I'll definitely give the "Auto" mode another go, and will watch out for the next Beta release. I might even start delving into the code to see how it all works!

Thanks once again.

 

[pattersoncr]

The Checklist, as it stand now has the bare minimum switches to get you into orbit. I'm working on expanding it right now to include more of the full checklists. The Checklist MFD is almost to the point where it will get you all the way to orbit automatically.

IMFD (and the new LTMFD) take the place of Mission Control which radioed burn data upto the astronauts. Once you have the burn data, executing a burn with the AGC is almost exactly what happen on the real mission:
program P30 to enter the burn data,
program P40 to execute the burn, the AGC starts the engine on time and cuts thrust when the appropriate dV is achieved.

BTW, the AGC was not used for TLI. TLI was controlled by the IU (the autopilot on the SIV-B). Data for the burn was entered by the folks on the ground. In NASSP, you need to stand in for Houston and calculate the burns yourself.

 

[The 2-Belo]

Whereas some of us (*cough*) are waiting for the day when everything in NASSP is properly emulated, from switch-throwing (including the requirement of waiting the proper time between switches or circuit breaker closings to allow for delta-P, voltage stabilization, etc) to tasks that the real pilots had to perform that are currently not simulated in Orbiter, such as removing the docking probe from the tunnel and opening the hatch before you can access the LM. I want to be able to do it all. (I wish I was a programmer, so that I would be able to contribute; alas, I am only a project planner.)

My interest in re-enacting missions such as this is not primarily to pretend OMG I'M IN TEH SPAEC!!!!!11111oneoneone, but it's also very much for the historical interest in an endeavor wherein three guys in a flying phone booth travel to another planet with little more than a pocket calculator each. 40 years later, it is stupendously amazing to me that these men were able to pull off such a voyage using the technology they had. And that they were able to conceive, invent, and build all of the hundreds of systems necessary to achieve this. It's amazing.

 

[Clavius0712]

Hi all,

Well, I tried the Apollo Checklist MFD again and didn't see any yellow flashing boxes around anything. Is this a recent addition? I'm using NASSP 7 and downloaded it using CVS but for the modules I downloaded them already built from the top-right link of the following page:

http://nassp.sourceforge.net/wiki/Installation

This says its the March 22 2009 release of the modules. Maybe I need to compile the latest version of the code?

I tried doing this in Visual Studio 2008 but looking in the Release folder all it had built were "dll.intermediate.manifest" files - not the actual dlls.

Please can someone tell me how to get the flashing yellow boxes working as I totally agree this would make the launch a lot more accessible without cutting too much stuff out of the checklists.

[EDIT]

WOW! Just got the flashing boxes thing working. I had already compiled all the modules again in VS2008 but was looking for the dlls. Well, I don't know if they got put in the right place automatically by the solution file but this morning I tried NASSP again and the flashing boxes were there!

This is now starting to be a lot of fun.

Cheers again.

 

[Tschachim]

I'll definitely give the "Auto" mode another go, and will watch out for the next Beta release.

The beta is available now: http://www.ibiblio.org/mscorbit/mscforum/index.php?topic=2182.0

 

[Clavius0712]

The beta is available now: http://www.ibiblio.org/mscorbit/mscforum/index.php?topic=2182.0

Hi Tschachim,

If I do a CVS update on all the folders and then compile the Visual Studio Solution file in Visual Studio 2008 with the "Release" option set in the configuration manager, isn't this the same thing as downloading the modules?

Just thought I'd check as I had already noticed a lot of the new features before your announcement by just compiling the solution file.

---------- Post added at 12:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:57 AM ----------

The beta is available now: http://www.ibiblio.org/mscorbit/mscforum/index.php?topic=2182.0

Hi again,

Unfortunately since upgrading to the latest beta, some of the control panels in the "Apollo 7 Virtual AGC - Launch" scenario are missing. If I navigate left from "Panel 1" a couple of times I end up with a view of the crawler and can't navigate back to Panel 1 again.

---------- Post added at 02:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:10 PM ----------

Whoops. Don't know why but my panels are back. Please disregard my last message. I have no idea how they have come back but the problem is fixed.

 

[Tschachim]

If I do a CVS update on all the folders and then compile the Visual Studio Solution file in Visual Studio 2008 with the "Release" option set in the configuration manager, isn't this the same thing as downloading the modules?

Correct, it's even better as you're up to date continuously. But Artlav's new Collision SDK (used for Saturn V rollout and lunar EVA) is in the beta modules pack only.

Cheers
Tschachim

 

[Gunner_CAF]

Very nice! I just tried out the latest version with the checklist MFD.

I am still working my way through Apollo 7 using the manual checklist and I will continue this. I am learning much more this way

Gunner

 

[Clavius0712]

Very nice! I just tried out the latest version with the checklist MFD.

I am still working my way through Apollo 7 using the manual checklist and I will continue this. I am learning much more this way

Gunner

I only wish they'd picked one of the Apollo's that actually went to the Moon to concentrate on!

I did manage to get to the Moon last night using one of the "Broken" missions and the "LunarTransfer" MFD to feed the burn data to the ProjectApollo MFD. LunarTransfer MFD is amazing - it got me into a "free return" trajectory with a periapsis of about 70k by doing nothing more than clicking "EXE". Much better than IMFD.

 

[Tschachim]

I only wish they'd picked one of the Apollo's that actually went to the Moon to concentrate on!

Step by step, no "Go Fever" please!

 

[Gunner_CAF]

I only wish they'd picked one of the Apollo's that actually went to the Moon to concentrate on!

I did manage to get to the Moon last night using one of the "Broken" missions and the "LunarTransfer" MFD to feed the burn data to the ProjectApollo MFD. LunarTransfer MFD is amazing - it got me into a "free return" trajectory with a periapsis of about 70k by doing nothing more than clicking "EXE". Much better than IMFD.

I thought the same thing, but they are still finishing the LM. In the mean time, A7 is a good mission to learn all the basics. I have been running through the check list (the excel spreadsheet), recording my results, then spending some time trying to figure what it was I just did. Little by little, I am getting a good idea of what everything means, and how it is supposed to work. The Project Apollo guys are doing a great job putting this together!

 

[Clavius0712]

I am getting a good idea of what everything means, and how it is supposed to work.

It's true I could do with a better understanding of all the systems. Last night I flew a mission to the Moon (Apollo 11 QuickStart in the "Broken" folder) and time accelerated to until near the Moon's SOI. When I came out of time acceleration the Master Alarm was on and about 8 or 9 yellow warning lights were lit up. Some were about the fuel cells (FC1-3); others about low pressure; and some I had no idea what they were about. I didn't have a clue how to fix the problem!

Does this mean you can have random system problems in NASSP 7 Beta? If so, it's even better than I thought - although I have even more to learn now!

 

[Tschachim]

Does this mean you can have random system problems in NASSP 7 Beta?

Not random (at least not with this scenario/configuration), but self-made.

You'd need to post/attach a scenario showing the problem if you want me to take a look. What was your max. time acceleration?

Cheers
Tschachim

 

[movieman]

Does this mean you can have random system problems in NASSP 7 Beta?

If you create your own scenarios you can enable random failures, though currently only a small number of them work and some can't be fixed without restarting the scenario (e.g. failed C/W panel lights). The existing scenarios simulate some of the real failures on the real missions, but it's much easier to cause things to fail yourself by not following the relevant checklist .