Mars terraforming thread

[Gerdih]

replicate and replicate and finally destroying the organism if the animal or person dead. And with it themselves.

 

[marooder86]

Yes... don't they replicate by proxy?

No they don't. They can spread that way but not repilicate.

 

[T.Neo]

So then, what do you suggest viruses be classified as? Ribosome puppets?

 

[Jarvitä]

So then, what do you suggest viruses be classified as? Ribosome puppets?

RNA molecules in a protein shell.

They can't even exist on their own, they rely on actual life to multiply. Thus, presence of viruses on Mars would imply presence of life currently or at some point in the past (viruses can "survive" pretty much indefinitely, which is another thing that separates them from life as it is usually defined).

 

[T.Neo]

RNA molecules in a protein shell.

Which is not all they are, they do some pretty interesting stuff for some proteins and RNA molecules...

They can't even exist on their own, they rely on actual life to multiply.

Indeed, though I fail to see how that makes something any more or less alive, considering that pretty much any organism is reliant on other organisms for one reason or another- usually nutrition and respiration.

Thus, presence of viruses on Mars would imply presence of life currently or at some point in the past (viruses can "survive" pretty much indefinitely, which is another thing that separates them from life as it is usually defined).

Indeed, and I'd be pretty amazed if there was anything like a virus on Mars.

There certainly aren't any pathogens there, that have evolved to attack humans...

 

[Jarvitä]

Which is not all they are, they do some pretty interesting stuff for some proteins and RNA molecules...

RNA molecules and proteins that do interesting things are still RNA molecules and proteins.

Indeed, though I fail to see how that makes something any more or less alive, considering that pretty much any organism is reliant on other organisms for one reason or another- usually nutrition and respiration.

Neither of which viruses are capable of.

 

[T.Neo]

RNA molecules and proteins that do interesting things are still RNA molecules and proteins.

Yes, but viruses do things that RNA molecules and proteins on their own don't do. It's like calling a space shuttle a "block of aluminium". Sure, the thing is (in part) made of aluminium, but it does far more than a block of aluminium alone would do.

Neither of which viruses are capable of.

Which wasn't my point at all. I was trying to point out that many organisms also need other organisms to survive, but mostly for different reasons.

 

[River Crab]

I believe one of the fancy atmosphere plot calculators someone posted here once showed Mars as being able to retain a nitrogen and oxygen atmosphere (good) but not water vapour (bad). But humans are not stupid, and we can be proactive about it, especially over such long timescales... setting up atmospheric UV shields (such as an ozone layer, if possible) or even space based shields might prove effective, and magnetic shielding of the atmosphere (perhaps by a coil at the L1 point) would help to reduce losses. But that is most definitely a solution for further in the future; we will certainly have a good deal of time, before Mars starts to lose atmosphere and water to space.

Hmm...I never seriously thought of using a spaceborne coil to protect and retain the atmosphere. Is it plausible? The huge magnitude of energy needed emanating from a single Lagrange point sounds frightening to me, but then again, I don't really know the science involved.

So, might such a thing possibly fall into the range of not-magic? :hmm:

 

[MikeB]

What are the requirements?

As a systems guy, I hate to see people wasting effort constructing a solution before defining the requirements. So what is the objective for "terraforming" Mars (or anywhere else)? Some thoughts in the form of step-wise high-level requirements (these would have to be expanded with technical requirements regarding physical, chemical, biological characteristics):

1. Create an environment that low-level life (e.g., bacteria, algae) could survive, perhaps so that they could form the bottom layer of a food chain, or could have other effects on the environment (e.g., adding oxygen to the atmosphere, creating nutrient-rich soil).

2. Create an environment that human-edible plants could survive/thrive, to provide food for colonists (presuming that the colonists would otherwise rely on their own artificial habitats).

3. Create an atmosphere that humans could live and work in without bulky pressure suits, but still using breathing apparatus and temperature-control garments.

4. Create an atmosphere that can be breathed by humans and animals, similar to cold high altitude habitable zones on earth.

5. Create a "shirt-sleeve" environment that humans could operate in as we do on earth.

Supposing some set of steps along these lines is the requirement, is it feasible/likely/desirable that even step 1 can be achieved with foreseeable technology (i.e., chemical rockets for transport, fusion energy, genetic engineering, maybe even re-engineering humans to better fit the alien environments)?

 

[T.Neo]

Hmm...I never seriously thought of using a spaceborne coil to protect and retain the atmosphere. Is it plausible? The huge magnitude of energy needed emanating from a single Lagrange point sounds frightening to me, but then again, I don't really know the science involved.

So, might such a thing possibly fall into the range of not-magic? :hmm:

Potentially. Since you're more worried about the solar wind stripping the atmosphere away, than you are about the atmosphere escaping to space on it's own.

If you place some sort of sufficiently-sized coil at the L1 point, that it can "shadow" the Martian atmosphere from the solar wind, you should be able to stave off a good deal of the atmospheric erosion.

Can anyone do a calculation on how large, massive and power-intensive such a coil would need to be to shield Mars from the solar wind?

UV light, which is what will split water into oxygen and hydrogen (which over time leads to water loss) could be shielded against by UV-blocking sunshades similar in principle to the space sunshades discussed for terran geoengineering, but these have problems, including bulk, manufacture, placement, control, and durability.

1. Create an environment that low-level life (e.g., bacteria, algae) could survive, perhaps so that they could form the bottom layer of a food chain, or could have other effects on the environment (e.g., adding oxygen to the atmosphere, creating nutrient-rich soil).

2. Create an environment that human-edible plants could survive/thrive, to provide food for colonists (presuming that the colonists would otherwise rely on their own artificial habitats).

3. Create an atmosphere that humans could live and work in without bulky pressure suits, but still using breathing apparatus and temperature-control garments.

4. Create an atmosphere that can be breathed by humans and animals, similar to cold high altitude habitable zones on earth.

5. Create a "shirt-sleeve" environment that humans could operate in as we do on earth.

I certainly agree with your general idea, but I disagree with some of the particular steps and their order. For example, as soon as the partial pressure is above a certain threshold (that I am unsure of), humans can survive on the surface without spacesuits, but will require breathing equipment and clothing depending on latitude (equatorial regions on Mars will be warm, and many regions on our own planet require a fair amount of protection).

Next would probably come the sequestration of the CO2 (as well as addition of artificial greenhouse gases such as CFCs to offset the loss in greenhouse gas potential) the addition and manufacture of nitrogen gas, which will then open up the planet for the production of oxygen and soil. Once the oxygen levels are high enough (and the CO2 levels low enough), humans can cease to wear their protective gear.

The last, most important, and probably longest step, is a settling of the planetary biosphere to the extent that it can support and ecosystem and biodiversity. Not only would bacteria and pioneer plants have to manufacture soil, but toxic chemicals and large concentrations of salts and other minerals will have to be managed.

I would call these the three steps; Waking Up, Getting Dressed, and Going to Work. We're Waking Up the Martian atmosphere and hydrosphere from it's state in polar caps and permafrost by warming it, we're Getting Mars Dressed in a breathable N2-O2, acceptably low CO2 atmosphere suitable for respiration and plant growth, and then Going to Work, performing ecopoesis and turning Mars into a living ecosystem by creating soils and marine environments.

Supposing some set of steps along these lines is the requirement, is it feasible/likely/desirable that even step 1 can be achieved with foreseeable technology (i.e., chemical rockets for transport, fusion energy, genetic engineering, maybe even re-engineering humans to better fit the alien environments)?

Yes, though I would go for nuclear electric interplanetary transport, and potentially ditch the fusion energy... if possible. If we have it and it's applicable, all the better.

I wouldn't start to mess with humans though, it's uneccesary because they can survive with technology (parkas and scuba tanks), and unethical because nobody should have the right to "design" a person and set out their life and purpose before they are born, regardless of their choice and without their consent.

Humans don't need to change themselves. We change the environment around us, that's what's made us so successful biologically and that is the whole purpose of terraforming. :thumbup: