Mars terraforming thread

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General discussion on the terraforming of Mars goes on here.

Proposals vary wildly, from crashing Phobos into the southern polar cap to release water and CO2 into the atmosphere to releasing areothermal energy with giant holes all around the planet.

Should Mars be terraformed at all? Which ideas do you consider the most feasible?

bluemars.jpg
 
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feasible? hell no, we cant even get a small craft there "FEESABLY". sensible? not yet, we can still get by on Earth, and we dont need another planet's worth of trouble.

in the future, we're going to have to migrate, Earth can only support us for so long (unless we really work on sustainability), THEN it becomes feesable
 
How do they intend on getting Phobos to fall at one of the poles...?

It would be easier to move icy near-Mars objects into a collision trajectory with Mars and have them burn in its atmosphere, releasing water.

Water is only a minor problem anyway. There is water ice already on Mars; it's only a matter of time to get it out. As far as we know, Mars is almost completely bereft of nitrogen, which is essential to photosynthesising life on Earth, though there may be undiscovered deposits of potassium nitrate, but likely, it would have to be imported, which as far as foreseeable technology is concerned, is completely impossible on such an enormous scale.

The extremes in temperature and pressure, and CO2 content would take centuries to overcome, not to mention the composition of the regolith being hostile to life...

If in the far future, we find ourselves capable of it, and decide to terraform Mars, it will be the most massive and historical undertaking in history.
 
Terraforming Mars is a very tempting idea but even after successful one, wouldn't it get back to it's nowadays dusty and rocky state because of lack of global magnetic field protecting so precious atmosphere?
 
I once saw an interesting documentary about this subject. It said that we could start by building factories whit greenhouse effect to heat it up and then, after it gets warm enough, ice will begin to melt, releasing more carbon dioxide. In about 50 years (IIRC), we could begin planting trees, which will create oxygen. Then, we just wait about 10000 years and done! Nice, habitable planet :facepalm:

But yeah, it would become un-habitable after that. Well, perhaps we'll find other ways of terraforming until then:hmm:
 
Another idea is to find or engineer a single-celled plant extremophile that could survive the current martian environment, live on either of the polar caps and feed on water and CO2 ice for photosynthesis. If it suceeds and spreads, Mars eventually gets a much denser atmosphere and retains more of the heat from solar radiation, which would allow the introduction of more complex and efficient plants.
 
Terraforming Mars is a very tempting idea but even after successful one, wouldn't it get back to it's nowadays dusty and rocky state because of lack of global magnetic field protecting so precious atmosphere?
Chances are, if people are ever advanced enough to give Mars a viable atmosphere, it's 100% plausible that they could also maintain it.

Maybe if we hit Mars with a giant lodestone asteroid coming in at a 90-degree equatorial inclination, it would magnetise the planet... :rofl:
 
Maybe if we hit Mars with a giant lodestone asteroid coming in at a 90-degree equatorial inclination, it would magnetise the planet... :rofl:
If we'd do that, there would probably not much left to magnetise:rofl: but we could give it a shoot:rofl:.
 
Ah, Mars terraforming. One of my favourite topics of interest...

Mars is probably the closest thing you could compare to an "easily terraformable planet". In terms of ease of terraforming, Mars far surpasses any other body in our system (Venus is for those who fly XR2s to work, the moons and mercury are either too small or too dead or too important to terraform).

We can do away with such nonsense as crashing Phobos or drilling holes, simply, because we do not need to. The first and foremost issue is heating the planet to release CO2 and water vapour, to form a primitive atmosphere. This can be done in three ways:

- Dust the icecaps with dark material, to promote sublimation, increase of atmospheric CO2 and water vapour, and increasing planetary temperature.

- Manufacture super-greenhouse gases such as CFCs or PFCs using local materials.

- Aim a soletta mirror or statite (i.e. a non-orbital solar sail that balances the pull of gravity with solar radiation pressure) at the polar caps, promoting sublimation of CO2 and water vapour, with the same objective as concept #1.

To make Mars habitable, however, we need a breathable atmosphere, containing oxygen, as well as a buffer gas- i.e, some inert gas. Nitrogen is the preferred choice, especially because it is required by some plants, and is what we have lived with on Earth for billions of years. Other suitably inert gases, such as Argon, are probably not as abundant as nitrogen either.

Something that has plagued me personally (and to an extent scientists proposing terraforming concepts) is the apparent lack of nitrogen in the Martian crust, which would lead to a requirement to import nitrogen from elsewhere in the solar system (such as Titan or comets), and this would be extremely costly. However, recently, it has been suggested (or discovered, I'm not really sure :uhh: ) that Mars has relatively sizable amounts of nitrate in the topsoil in certain regions, and this could increase with depth.

Oxygen is the last problem, and obtaining it will probably be pretty difficult- it should be a major chemical component of the crust, but the problem is, it's locked away in oxides. I'm not sure... maybe a potential for oxygen production is splitting water. Photosynthesis works too but it obviously has its disadvantages, not to mention the fact that many plants need oxygen to function in the first place.

Keeping carbon dioxide below a certain level is also important.

It is worth noting that while Earth's atmosphere is roughly 9.81 tons per every square meter, because Mars has a lower gravity, it needs more mass per area for a given pressure- in this case, around 27 tons/m^2 for a roughly 1 bar atmosphere.

The amount of water is also an interesting issue. Mars should have a good deal of water stored away in it's vast amounts of permafrost, and it's topography means that water will tend to collect in the numerous depressions across the Martian landscape- craters. Mars hasn't seen the water erosion that Earth has, so it still has this interesting depression distribution... it is important because it doesn't mean all the water is dumped in the ocean, a lot of it can be dumped "inland" (in the highlands) where it might be needed.

Of course imports are an option of more water is required, from bodies such as asteroids or comets, but this will also be problematic and expensive... I also think, though, that gradual distribution of small hydrated fragments (i.e. icy gravel) would make a better delivery system for water than large, monolithic impacts (which could be pretty damaging).

I believe one of the fancy atmosphere plot calculators someone posted here once showed Mars as being able to retain a nitrogen and oxygen atmosphere (good) but not water vapour (bad). But humans are not stupid, and we can be proactive about it, especially over such long timescales... setting up atmospheric UV shields (such as an ozone layer, if possible) or even space based shields might prove effective, and magnetic shielding of the atmosphere (perhaps by a coil at the L1 point) would help to reduce losses. But that is most definitely a solution for further in the future; we will certainly have a good deal of time, before Mars starts to lose atmosphere and water to space.

Mars has 144 798 500 km^2 of surface area. If we assume 40% of that is water, and 25% of the remaining land area is totally uninhabitable (polar desert or highlands- Tharsis is a real bother, even with a thick atmosphere it's dry, cold and thin aired, like a third polar cap at the equator), that is 65 159 325 km^2.

Which is almost four times the area of Russia, more than seven times the USA, and 8.5 times Australia. If the entire area had the population of the US, a developed country with plenty of industry, but large amounts of farmland and set-aside natural land, Mars could house 2.19 billion people. Mind you a lot of Mars will probably have Canadian climate, so it could be lower... then again there are probably going to be quite large settlements on the equator.

Should we terraform Mars? I for one, are very tired of those who proclaim we could never do such a thing, that we're "too small", and that's rubbish. We, like any other organism, can change our environment- and we have been changing our planetary environment, virtually from the agricultural revolution. This is on a different scale, of course, but dismissing it outright strikes me as downright silly.

I am also tired of those who abhor the concept of terraforming Mars, because we shouldn't mess up it's "natural beauty", or that we have some sort of moral obligation to not change the planetary environment wholesale.

Now, to be honest, I love Mars. It's landscapes, it's climate, it's geology, geography, fascinate me intensely. When I look at the rover images, it strikes a chord with me, it's a very interesting landscape, almost like- in Aldrin's description of the Moon- magnificent desolation.

But then I look at the terraforming potential, and I wonder; how much more beautiful are those dunefields or rockfields, than a living world, with water, foliage, wildlife, and human activity layered over it? I know that by terraforming Mars we will remove some of it's grace, and it will be radically changed, but the gain outweighs the loss. And in the end we will never, ever manage to make Mars into another Earth; Mars is Mars, and despite any "terra" "forming" you give her, she'll still be there. It's just like... a planetary makeover.

Of course the real problem is the potential for native life, and that calls into question the environmental damage potentially done by terraforming. We can only seriously regard life as occuring relatively deep within the soil or the crust, but even then, temperature changes, and of course, the presence of introduced bacteria, would most likely spell the end for such organisms, at least in most regions.

Is this an acceptable loss? Is it acceptable if the organism shares a common ancestor with us (which could be quite probable)? Does introduction and cultivation of diverse terrestrial life warrant potential ecocide on the first extraterrestrial organisms discovered?

I don't know. As much as I would like to see cultivation, such a discovery should be a cherished scientific treasure. Is it worth discarding? It is a massive topic of debate, and one that would certainly balloon to planetary proportions if it were discovered on Mars, in light of potential terraforming.

I personally hope that Mars is dead, so that we can claim it for ourselves and our biological kin. And that is slightly mean, it's colonialist, imperialist... maybe I am thinking too green about it, they're just simple bacteria like organisms. :shifty:

We (more or less) have the technology to terraform Mars today, we just don't have the economy or the willpower, or the knowledge. There's so much we don't know about Mars, let alone how it would react to terraforming... I think that before we ever attempt terraforming, Mars would have to be intensely and comprehensively researched.
 
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i think that true terraforming of anywhere other than earth will come around when we work out how to break down any matter and rebuild it in any other type EG take rocks, split them in a nuclear reaction, turn the energy straight back to matter, and chose matter like oxygen, carbon, nitrogen, whatever you need.

hard to imagine isnt it? but so was everything else we consider "normal". keep a tab on CERN and see what they manage to achieve.
 
Is this an acceptable loss? Is it acceptable if the organism shares a common ancestor with us (which could be quite probable)? Does introduction and cultivation of diverse terrestrial life warrant potential ecocide on the first extraterrestrial organisms discovered?

IMHO, it doesn't matter whether it shares any common ancestor with us. If it's life, it's life. But they are still just bacteria, or even viruses. They can't think. The viruses don't even live (at least that's what I've read :hmm:). So, it may sound a little egocentric, but our well-being is much more important than theirs.

That provided they actually exist, of course...

Edit: This is thread number 20000 O.o
 
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Yeah... you can't just split atoms and "turn energy back into matter".

Splitting apart nuclei and then reforming the constituent subatomic particles into another element, if possible, would be very difficult and energy consuming. Highly impractical.

There is nitrogen in the soil, we don't need to perform sci-fi alchemy. And if there isn't enough, we'll just expensively import some from a comet, not try to run an atomic frankenstein machine.

IMHO, it doesn't matter whether it shares any common ancestor with us. If it's life, it's life.

They're more scientifically important if they do not share a common ancestor; this shows that biogenesis has occured at least twice, and is thus very likely to happen again elsewhere in the universe. It would mean that they're true aliens, not just our distant cousins that moved out back in the beginning.

They can't think.

They're still alive.

A tree can't think. By that logic it should be fine to demolish the Amazon rainforest?

The viruses don't even live (at least that's what I've read ).

Indeed, I would rather regard them as a form of replicator, rather than a proper organism. They have heritable reproduction and a contained structure, but not a metabolism.

So, it may sound a little egocentric, but our well-being is much more important than theirs.

Oh, of course, but destroying biodiversity doesn't sit well with me... and some people may very vehemently oppose it.
 
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I really doubt the effectiveness of lowering the albedo on the polar caps. Focusing a soletta there sounds like a much less...slow or unreliable way of melting them, and removes environmental risk of having black dust made of who-knows-what over a sizeable portion of the planet's surface - dust that could be picked up in storms and carried anywhere on the planet. I've also seen arguments for the detonation of fusion bombs underneath the caps to warm them. Any early colonists are going to be dealing with very high doses of radiation to begin with, so a 'few' nukes underground in uninhabited areas shouldn't be an unwarranted hazard, barring the potential of destroying indigenous life life down there, which is extraordinarily unlikely in the polar caps...maybe... :shifty:
 
Sounds to me that for the same price as terraforming Mars we could find a habitable exoplanet and colonize it thereby saving ourselves the trouble.
 
... So, it may sound a little egocentric, ...
It quite does:) but it's so human:).
... but our well-being is much more important than theirs.
I can't agree with you at that point. I would even say they(bacterias) are much more important. Just try to digest an apple for example without bacterias living in your body;). Do we like it or not such simple organisms are vital parts of ourselfs:).

And back to the Mars. Don't we have much more important problems to solve here. I see no reason to make Mars habitable yet for additional 3 or 4 billion people. I think, with resonable resource menagement Earth can handle at least twice as much souls as live here rightnow:thumbup:.

The viruses don't even live (at least that's what I've read
Indeed, I would rather regard them as a form of replicator, rather than a proper organism. They have heritable reproduction and a contained structure, but not a metabolism.

As far as I know viruses are more like matrices for other replicators(attaked cells). They can't replicate by themselfs they need other organism to do it for them. But I might be wrong.
 
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I really doubt the effectiveness of lowering the albedo on the polar caps. Focusing a soletta there sounds like a much less...slow or unreliable way of melting them, and removes environmental risk of having black dust made of who-knows-what over a sizeable portion of the planet's surface - dust that could be picked up in storms and carried anywhere on the planet. I've also seen arguments for the detonation of fusion bombs underneath the caps to warm them. Any early colonists are going to be dealing with very high doses of radiation to begin with, so a 'few' nukes underground in uninhabited areas shouldn't be an unwarranted hazard, barring the potential of destroying indigenous life life down there, which is extraordinarily unlikely in the polar caps...maybe...

The problem with a soletta/statite is that it has to be big, and heavy... and light.

It has to have a large reflecting area, but also a minimal mass. But it will still be quite heavy. I think it'd be pretty difficult to construct and operate, to be honest... not too difficult, but difficult.

The advantage of the dark dust method is that all you need is an abundant amount of dark dust, and a means by which to spread it over the polar caps. How the latter could be done I'm not sure, but it is certainly lower-tech than a space mirror.

And a soletta/statite is also going to only affect a limited area... vast swathes of polar cap could potentially be covered with dust. If it blows off it should not be too much of a problem, after all it'll probably be dark material mined elsewhere on Mars (it does exist, see Syrtis Major and the other regions; it's natural). And the more dark material on the surface in general, the better. It might not be directly affecting the caps but it will lower the albedo, which means, heating the planet.

The fusion detonations... I dunno. To be honest I really doubt they'd be that effective, and besides, nukes are outlawed by treaty, and while fallout may not pose that serious a problem, it is still not a nice idea... we don't really know about how fallout acts in Martian conditions.

Sounds to me that for the same price as terraforming Mars we could find a habitable exoplanet and colonize it thereby saving ourselves the trouble.

You could probably do it for a good deal less economically, but technologically it'll be far more difficult.

Besides, trying to colonise a habitable exoplanet would be very dangerous... we would know very little about it, or what could potentially live there, and the ability for contact with the colonists would be nonexistant.

Mars is only a month away from Earth if you use nuclear-electric propulsion, and a few minutes away in terms of communication... it is still part of our "world", so to speak.

So while it is far larger in terms of economics and sheer scale, it poses a far smaller problem in terms of technology, competency, and overall risk.

I would even say they(bacterias) are much more important. Just try to digest an apple for example without bacterias living in your body. Do we like it or not such simple organisms are vital parts of ourselfs.

Well, yes. But, try digesting an apple without existing. ;)

Simple organisms make up a large part of our lives and the world around us, but I'm afraid martian microbes do not fit this definition... it is not like they are rotting rubbish or digesting apples.

And back to the Mars. Don't we have much more important problems to solve here. I see no reason to make Mars habitable yet for additional 3 or 4 billion people. I think, with resonable resource menagement Earth can handle at leat twice as much souls as live here now.

Well yes, but that now means a higher population density, which equates to more larger cities.

Mind you since we've terraformed Mars, you'd expect us to have mastered indoor farming and meat culturing, so food production should not be too problematic.
 
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Why not cover the polar caps with dark-green plant organisms, lowering the albedo and producing an atmosphere at the same time?
 
Because it'll be nigh impossible for the organisms to survive, in sub-zero, vacuum conditions. I cannot see growth or metabolism occuring there, regardless of any genetic alterations to the plants.
 
As far as I know viruses are more like matrices for other replicators(attaked cells). They can't replicate by themselfs they need other organism to do it for them. But I might be wrong.[/QUOTE]

Yes. As far as I know viruses replicated thanks to the teplicate of the organism that they attack. They insert his ADN that is somthing diferent and when the organism replicates they replicates this ADN creating virusses.
 
Yes... don't they replicate by proxy? ;)
 
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