Alien conquistadores?

[Ghostrider]

I for one welcome our new redhead, Catholic skeptic gun-toting pathologist black lace lingerie-wearing overladies.

 

[Zachstar]

I kind of disagree with him. I don't believe aliens would actively target earth. Mass murder is not something any sentient species takes lightly and needless when there is massive resources at the outer parts of the solar system.

The big question of course is if they really do need the power of an entire star to FTL. That might get us in a bad spot.

 

[Andy44]

The big question of course is if they really do need the power of an entire star to FTL. That might get us in a bad spot.

Yes, over on the Atomic Rocket Main Page, there is a whole discussion about the implications of relativistic travel (not FTL). The gist is that whover discovers the other species first may immediately develop a rocket capable of relativistic speeds, and fly it into the other species' planet, unleashing a dinasoar-killing amount of energy. If you don't do it first, the aliens might do it to you.

It's John's Law: any propulsion system powerful enough to be interesting is also a weapon of mass destruction.

 

[T.Neo]

I for one welcome our new redhead, Catholic skeptic gun-toting pathologist black lace lingerie-wearing overladies.

Overladies... :rofl:

The big question of course is if they really do need the power of an entire star to FTL. That might get us in a bad spot.

Or perhaps they need not use Sol, or use it in an ecologically unsound manner. The galaxy has plenty of stars, and plenty of stars that are more massive and luminous than Sol.

It's John's Law: any propulsion system powerful enough to be interesting is also a weapon of mass destruction.

Not only the propulsion system, but the system being propelled. Although I'm sure any drive able to get you up to appreciable speed could make a planet toasty.

I doubt the logic behind killing anyone you find as soon as you find them. Mass murder certainly isn't something to be taken lightly, even when there is a remote and not definite possibility that the opposing side could do it to you.
Even the fastest RKKVs are subluminal by a small margin; I'm sure there would be a way to detect them and use countermeasures against them. If I had the ability to do this, I'd certainly take it over genocide.

 

[Andy44]

I doubt the logic behind killing anyone you find as soon as you find them. Mass murder certainly isn't something to be taken lightly, even when there is a remote and not definite possibility that the opposing side could do it to you.

I also have my doubts; this thinking is basically von Neumann's Game Theory, which was studied and developed extensively in the 40's and 50's and applied to Cold War strategies, but which never explained why people often acted against their own self-interest.

The cynic would say that although you may win a bigger prize by cooperating with an alien species, you are guaranteed not to lose if you can hurry up and kill them first.

Had the US used this logic in the 50s, it would've destroyed the USSR as quickly as possible while the US still had an advantage in numbers and delivery methods.

But the US didn't, and the USSR managed to hold back even when its soldiers thought they might be under attack. Why? Sentient species can be heartless, but they also have empathy and moral codes. There's no reason to think sentient aliens wouldn't as well.

Even as one ethnicity enslaves or dispossesses another, there's still an internal resistance to outright genocide among most of its members' minds, which requires special treatment to overcome (ie. lots of propaganda).

 

[Sky Captain]

The biggest threat probably is that a truly advanced civilization I mean like 2+ level on Kardashev scale could wipe us out accidentally like a guy tasked to clear a bush with bulldozer don't care about ant nests he runs over. Hoverer I think we can reasonably sure say there is no such civilization in our galactic neighborhood because it would cause all sorts of weird astronomical phenomena unexplainable with natural stellar processes.

 

[AirSimming]

If she was an alien, let our Earth be overtaken by her ! Nice picture :speakcool:!

As I said a few pages before: the hatches open, and they crawl out of their giant spaceship, thousands of female aliens. Their goal: self-preservation by an "alien" species. I could imagine female alien could become rather popular

 

[docabn]

I think the problem is that our civilization all of them would be destroyed almost instantly simply by their arrival.
Imagine that you are a member of a small island tribe and you just figured out how to put a sail on a raft and travel to a nearby island. Of course there are plenty who think who cares we have what we need right here and such; while you are arguing with the leader of your tribe for more manpower and materials to build a better raft an aircraft carrier slides in over the horizon and send a hovercraft full of modern men and women to say hi and ask you mind if they build a shipyard on the far side of your little island.
Suddenly your great invention; for that matter any invention your tribe has made seems insignificant. Your creative ideas are all but worthless in the face of vastly superior intelligence. Depending on the structure of your particular civilization, the result may be anything from utter chaos to a gradual blending with the new arrivals.
Regardless, your society, your views, your civilization are irrevocably altered simply by the act of contact.
Most importantly, anything you might have developed, independent of the visitors is now forever lost.

 

[Enjo]

As I said a few pages before: the hatches open, and they crawl out of their giant spaceship, thousands of female aliens. Their goal: self-preservation by an "alien" species. I could imagine female alien could become rather popular

There were a movie just like that in around the '50s. A Polish translator of Ender's Game himself was performing a lecture about old sci-fi movies where I heard it

 

[Andy44]

Regardless, your society, your views, your civilization are irrevocably altered simply by the act of contact.
Most importantly, anything you might have developed, independent of the visitors is now forever lost.

That's a good point, and a look at any American Indian reservation is a good example. The movie District 9 was based on a related scenario.

 

[AirSimming]

As of the American Indians:

I think it's just human nature to always assume the worst rather than something good (if the climate changes for example, it never does at the best, it's always causing a fatal vision of the future). Anything can happen if aliens would contact us. How another intelligent species would think and act like is by no means foreseeable. I personally don't like to compare our and the American Indian history with the universe and different species because it's two different worlds and scenarios of which one is just fictive in a typical negative human way of thinking.

I might stir up nervous voices, but I ask myself how our world would look like without the USA and Europe and their histories? What about the age of enlightenment, human rights, democracy, wealth, technological and scientific progress? Almost everybody here likes to watch a Shuttle launch at the Cape, be it on site or live in front of TV and computer screens. Each time we enjoy it, we actually do so at the back of American Indians and another groups of humans who have lost something in their history...

I think that if we get together with aliens, the outcome might be good in the long term rather than bad. We might learn and understand a whole lot more than we do for now.

 

[T.Neo]

Their goal: self-preservation by an "alien" species. I could imagine female alien could become rather popular

You would be more likely to self-preserve with a tulip. That doesn't rule out other, uh, activities with aliens though, but I'll swiftly avoid that topic as not to infringe on forum rules. :shifty:

I think the problem is that our civilization all of them would be destroyed almost instantly simply by their arrival.

Regardless, your society, your views, your civilization are irrevocably altered simply by the act of contact.
Most importantly, anything you might have developed, independent of the visitors is now forever lost.

The difference between first contact between pacific islanders and first contact between humans and extraterrestrial sophonts is that what we have "developed independant of the visitors" amounts to quite a bit. I wouldn't be surprised, for example, if a good deal of our industry or technology is present in their society, in some form.

The movie District 9 was based on a related scenario.

I think it was more that the Prawns didn't have much of a culture to begin with, or at least we don't see any of it.

What about the age of enlightenment, human rights, democracy, wealth, technological and scientific progress?

European civilisation is the precursor to the planetary civilisation we have now. Erase that from history, and you've got very little... small nomadic or semi-agricultural groups, perhaps empires like the Aztec or Inca. Until China crosses the Pacific and colonises the Americas, or crosses Russia and the Indian ocean to colonise Africa and Europe...

Almost everybody here likes to watch a Shuttle launch at the Cape, be it on site or live in front of TV and computer screens. Each time we enjoy it, we actually do so at the back of American Indians and another groups of humans who have lost something in their history...

Injustices in the process of first contact and colonisation were not nessescary for these things to appear. That is a bit of a pity, I think it would have been far more advantageous if it had been gone about without the racism and patriarchal ideals.

That's a good point, and a look at any American Indian reservation is a good example.

Because aliens will put us in reservations?

 

[AirSimming]

Injustices in the process of first contact and colonisation were not nessescary for these things to appear. That is a bit of a pity, I think it would have been far more advantageous if it had been gone about without the racism and patriarchal ideals.

History always could have happened differently, but it happened like it happened.

Technologically and scientifically the colonisation might not have been nessescary (the first rocket that reached space was launched from German ground; the first human to enter space was launched from Russian ground). But historically the colonisation was crucial for enjoying Apollo, STS etc. these days. Europeans (mostly) "got" land on which a lot of amazing things happen and almost the entire world participates from a lot of those things. Like Tom Hanks alias Jim Lovell says in Apollo 13: "Imagine if Christopher Columbus did come back from the new world and no one returned in his foodsteps".

 

[T.Neo]

The US influence on Germany in WWII (did the V2 actually go above 100km? I thought it was just high atmospheric) and on the USSR in the cold war. I would expect scientific and technological development to be far behind what it is in reality.

And you do not "get" land. The land belongs to those who call it home; if you've been born somewhere, or your ancestors have lived there for generations, you're "native". Even the indigenous peoples of the Americas or Australia, or New Zealand came there not too long ago. And the same goes for the people that claim I'm a "foreigner" in my own country- many of them too came here only a few hundred years ago.

I am not guilty when I use a computer, or watch a shuttle launch, or walk the land of my home country, because some people were negatively affected by historical events. The past is over and every person deserves equal rights regardless of heritage, gender or belief.

 

[AirSimming]

The US influence on Germany in WWII (did the V2 actually go above 100km? I thought it was just high atmospheric) and on the USSR in the cold war. I would expect scientific and technological development to be far behind what it is in reality.

I don't quite understand those two sentences.

And you do not "get" land. The land belongs to those who call it home; if you've been born somewhere, or your ancestors have lived there for generations, you're "native". Even the indigenous peoples of the Americas or Australia, or New Zealand came there not too long ago. And the same goes for the people that claim I'm a "foreigner" in my own country- many of them too came here only a few hundred years ago.

And now guess why I put the quotation marks in place :thumbup:

I am not guilty when I use a computer, or watch a shuttle launch

You profit from history.

 

[T.Neo]

I don't quite understand those two sentences.

That the technological achievements of Nazi Germany and the USSR might not have happened in the lack of competition provided by a large nation like the USA.

The question related to the V2 I'm asking is whether it went higher than 100 km in operation by the Germans.

And now guess why I put the quotation marks in place :thumbup:

I don't understand, what exactly are you trying to say here?

You profit from history.

And people like the Maori, Australian Aboriginals, and Native Americans did not?

From what I can understand, Maori and Australian Aboriginals are respected culturally and politically. I would also not be surprised if at least one shuttle astronaut was of at least partial Native American descent.

And modern industry and technology derived from "history" is available to all.

 

[Enjo]

The question related to the V2 I'm asking is whether it went higher than 100 km in operation by the Germans.

AFAIK German rocket scientists were given an offer they couldn't refuse by the US to work for them after the US took over. Wernher von Braun was even happy that he could continue working on his rockets, so modern rocketry partly uses the same German ideas as those from WWII.
To me, as a "good scientist" it would be even more motivating to work on projects more peaceful than V2, no matter for which country.

 

[Linguofreak]

I kind of disagree with him. I don't believe aliens would actively target earth. Mass murder is not something any sentient species takes lightly and needless when there is massive resources at the outer parts of the solar system.

We've done it before...

The biggest threat probably is that a truly advanced civilization I mean like 2+ level on Kardashev scale could wipe us out accidentally like a guy tasked to clear a bush with bulldozer don't care about ant nests he runs over.

I disagree. First of all, it assumes that Kardashev II technology would make those that possess it more intellegent. This is by no means a given. For all our wonderful technology, we aren't any smarter than we were one or two or ten thousand years ago.

Secondly, if we take the assumption that they are smarter, it also assumes that just because these hypothetical Kardashev II aliens are to us as we are to ants, they will be as aware of us as we are of ants. There are two problems here:

1) That the Kardashev II civ will have historical records of having been a civilization on our level (we have no historical records of being ants), and will thus have more first-hand experience of how things are for civs on our level than we have for "ant civilization".
2) That the greater intelligence of the Kardashev II civilization might just make them more aware of ants than we are, and correspondingly more aware of us. We might not care about running over an anthill, they might. (Now this does not necessarily mean that their treatment of anthills, or of us, would be benevolent, just that there would be more thought put into it. Where we might ignore an anthill, they might notice it, but whether they then leave the anthill alone or find a way to profit at its expense is left open)

I think the problem is that our civilization all of them would be destroyed almost instantly simply by their arrival.
Imagine that you are a member of a small island tribe and you just figured out how to put a sail on a raft and travel to a nearby island. Of course there are plenty who think who cares we have what we need right here and such; while you are arguing with the leader of your tribe for more manpower and materials to build a better raft an aircraft carrier slides in over the horizon and send a hovercraft full of modern men and women to say hi and ask you mind if they build a shipyard on the far side of your little island.
Suddenly your great invention; for that matter any invention your tribe has made seems insignificant. Your creative ideas are all but worthless in the face of vastly superior intelligence.

Here again is the assumption that superior technology means superior intellect. It does not. It simply means a head start.

Depending on the structure of your particular civilization, the result may be anything from utter chaos to a gradual blending with the new arrivals.
Regardless, your society, your views, your civilization are irrevocably altered simply by the act of contact.
Most importantly, anything you might have developed, independent of the visitors is now forever lost.

Yes, but if you keep calm and collected, and their intentions aren't too malevolent, you can jump-start yourself up to where they are and start trying to outdo them. Japan did a very good job of this, with the battle of Tsushima occuring about 50 years after Admiral Perry showed up in Tokyo Bay, and Pearl Harbor occurring within 90 years of that same event.

 

[jedidia]

History always could have happened differently, but it happened like it happened.

it allways repeats itself too... Let's say we become a species able to travel the stellar void, and happen upon a technologically inferior society. I don't think the story would end much differently as it ended in america (provided they have something of interest). It is a logical conclusion that the same might be possible if a superior race happens uppon us.

Of course they would most probably be more advanced sociologically (lest they would have blown themselfes up with their antimatter-tech or whatever insane energysource brought them here), but I don't know how far they would have been able to overcome the "we/the others" scheme on a species-to-species basis. A lot might hinge on wheather we are the first alien civilisation they happen upon or not. If yes, they might be just as much at a loss about what to do as we are... just that they sit on the longer lever, and the safety of your own species always comes first.

 

[T.Neo]

First of all, it assumes that Kardashev II technology would make those that possess it more intellegent. This is by no means a given. For all our wonderful technology, we aren't any smarter than we were one or two or ten thousand years ago.

Indeed, but we are certainly more advanced in other areas, such as society.

And being more intelligent than us, for example, does not mean you will have a more advanced society. If you have more advanced technology (usually means you've been around longer) you're bound to have advanced culturally and societally as well.

That the Kardashev II civ will have historical records of having been a civilization on our level (we have no historical records of being ants), and will thus have more first-hand experience of how things are for civs on our level than we have for "ant civilization".

There's quite a difference between evolution from ants (? perhaps basal chordates ) and evolution into a Kardashev II civilisation. Technological advancement happens much faster than evolution, for one.

And again, you can't compare an ant to an organism like a human; there are fundamental differences that put a sophont in a wholly different class.

Here again is the assumption that superior technology means superior intellect. It does not. It simply means a head start.

Or superior society.

But this is very true. If we were given a shipping container full of highly advanced alien technology, and a comprehensive manual written in simple English, we wouldn't be any more intelligent or better in dealing with eachother (or others).

Yes, but if you keep calm and collected, and their intentions aren't too malevolent, you can jump-start yourself up to where they are and start trying to outdo them. Japan did a very good job of this, with the battle of Tsushima occuring about 50 years after Admiral Perry showed up in Tokyo Bay, and Pearl Harbor occurring within 90 years of that same event.

Indeed.

Let's say we become a species able to travel the stellar void, and happen upon a technologically inferior society. I don't think the story would end much differently as it ended in america (provided they have something of interest). It is a logical conclusion that the same might be possible if a superior race happens uppon us.

But why? What do we, or an alien society less advanced than ourselves, have to offer? This isn't the Wild West, it's space.

The only viable way to make it happen would probably be a mcguffin (like Avatar's unobtainium). And even in fiction, it doesn't make sense.

I don't know how far they would have been able to overcome the "we/the others" scheme on a species-to-species basis.

Indeed, but that's pretty much what we're discussing here. (Sure, it hasn't been seriously thought of by governments and the like, but aliens haven't shown up yet either).

But it could depend a lot on culture or psychology. Maybe they don't have science fiction like our own, or maybe they don't have fiction in a recognisable manner. Which would lead to speculation about dealing with alien life being limited or nonexistant.