Question Woomera 6A launch site.

[tblaxland]

Its still there on Google Earth at
55.026746° -2.605573°
Quite close to the admin buildings.

Its looking a little worse for wear . Yes, I guess fractional distillation is not too dangerous, even at those temperatures.

I'd assumed that they were telemetry cables and ran back to the control building. As they are lox pipe-work, then the common junction must have been the lox plant location?

So, where is the control building?

Back next to the LOX plant I would say. The image I posted above seems to show a cluster of buildings back there, other than the LOX plant. There doesn't seem to have been many other buildings on the site.

I couldn't read the cricket scores, the digits are too small. I'll presume they were for Australia...

This was the bit I was looking at: "The MCC, aided by several dropped catches, were two wickets for 168 at tea..."

Nice cartoon, BTW.

 

[Notebook]

Did some measuring on Google Earth:
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k207/Notebook_04/Woomera6A-1.jpg

That path is .81km, assuming the path to 6B is simillar that gives 1.6Km of pipe-line.
I don't know how expensive that is compared to using a tanker, (there is "tanker unloading" marked on the North side diagram in #18 above, assume this is for Kero).
What would be the advantage of piping Lox direct to the start tanks compared to using road tankers?

N.

 

[tblaxland]

I don't know how expensive that is compared to using a tanker, (there is "tanker unloading" marked on the North side diagram in #18 above, assume this is for Kero).
What would be the advantage of piping Lox direct to the start tanks compared to using road tankers?

I can't imagine it would be viable to truck LOX just 800m in such a remote location. What would the tankers be doing the rest of the time? Either sitting their un-utilised (a tanker trailer is no cheap thing) or alternatively moved some great distance away (probably Adelaide) to do other jobs and taking a long time to get back when needed.

 

[Notebook]

Different solutions for different places? They tankered it at Spadeadam, but that site was test/development. Woomera was going to be a dedicated launch site for who knows how many Europas.
I guess that makes it viable to make a more permanent structure?

N.

---------- Post added at 10:44 ---------- Previous post was at 07:15 ----------

Just for info, here's a frame from a film about 6A
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k207/Notebook_04/Woomera6Atrenches.jpg

There seem to be two trenches, and some vertical elements.

N.

 

[Lunar_Lander]

Thanks for the info tblaxland and Notebook ! The one photo did show what I had mentioned as "thing between the engines", indeed the generator exhaust!

So the flight we saw was Europa I F1...I knew that F1, F2, F3 (F4 also?) were flights of the Blue Streak alone, and then they put on the 2nd and 3rd stages as dummy versions, and then finally a live 2nd stage and a live 3rd stage.

I saw a video of the first ever R-7 launch, in which the LOX was brought in by a Tanker, and also a photo of a Redstone tanking operation, which also involved a LOX tanker. Maybe a tanker would also have too much evaporation loss, given that all the operations were in the middle of the desert.

Is Spadeadam the site which I once read about in a paper, where a "Cumbria Spaceport" was proposed? It proposed launching Europa I from there, with a ground track over Norway and the Arctic. It said that the risks of LV malfunction were "low" because the ground track would cross open country in the UK, and the second stage would then fall in Northern Norway.

BTW, I found it interesting, that the French would test their second stage on it's own as a small rocket consisting of the 2nd stage and a dummy third stage. All three flights did suffer Autopilot problems, but nevertheless the Coralie was declared ready for flight. And one of the later Europa flights (IIRC it was F9) did fail because of a plug between the 2nd and 3rd stage, because the pins in the plugs were set differently on both stages respectively.

 

[Notebook]

To Lunar_Lander:

This gives some info on the launches:
http://s89.photobucket.com/albums/k207/Notebook_04/?action=view&current=File0003-2.jpg

(I think they have moved Papua/New Guinea out the way...)

This is about the different vehicles:
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k207/Notebook_04/File0014.jpg

It would be intersting to see how Lox is handled at the modern launch sites, Kennedy, Baikonour, Kourou. If they have lox production sites on site, and if they pipe or tanker it around.

Spadeadam was considered for launches:
http://www.spaceuk.org/bstreak/bs/cumbria.htm
Not for long by the look of it!

Other sites were considered for Europa, including Darwin.
http://www.spaceuk.org/bstreak/eldo/darwin.html
(Looks like they moved Papua/New Guinea back)

A bit more info on the F(number) launches.

http://www.spaceuk.org/bstreak/eldo/eldo.html

N

 

[tblaxland]

I just got an email from a Singtel Optus employee referring me to a book called "Fire Across the Desert. Woomera and the Anglo-Australian Joint Project". At 575 pages it is quite a hefty tome but it is very pricey (about USD 200). The State Library here has a copy, perhaps a library you have access to does also?

 

[tl8]

It is in my university library, just as a side note...

 

[Notebook]

Thanks for that tb, had a look on Amazon and they have a couple of used copies, $500....Definetely a library job!

N.
Slightly off topic?
I was making a staircase in gmax, using Line, then extrude. This is it at the moment:
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k207/Notebook_04/09081208-06-29GL-01.jpg

Its single side so dissapears in certain views. Then tried off-setting the line horizontally,joining it up and extruding that. That works, but dosent cap the sides of the staircase.
Is there a better method?
Thought about extruding a box along the path of the staircase, but that will give a lot of hidden vertices. Maybe 'slant' a box at the correct angle, then boolean cut the risers and treads form that?

Or is there a simpler way I'm missing?

Thanks
N.

 

[tl8]

Notebook, offset you line again.

You will then need to join the 2 parts so that there is only 3 and 4 sided polygons all along the side.

 

[tblaxland]

Or is there a simpler way I'm missing?

Make a ramp and texture it? Saturn V did something similar for the Titan (?) launch pads to keep the polys down. I doubt that the stair case will be looked at that closely, especially with your beautiful shiny BlueStreak sitting on the pad

 

[Notebook]

Shiny Blue Streak...should get on with the main stuff instead of playing with the details. I think its called 'Displacement Activity.

To tl8:
I think I didn't close the splines when I joined the two offset. Re-did it as one piece, and it put the caps on the sides. Works as I'd hoped now:
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k207/Notebook_04/09081210-26-15GL-01.jpg

Thanks for the info, N.

 

[Lunar_Lander]

Well done there Notebook!

@tl8 and tblaxland: What exactly is the book you mentioned about? About all of the Blue Streak/Europa I activities (and Black Arrow also)?

I just found this interesting website, where you can build your own F1-F3 Blue Streak!: http://www.nielspapermodels.com/bluestreak.htm

EDIT: Post number 200, yay xD!

 

[Notebook]

Thanks Lunar Lander, put some safety rails on the stairs. Health & Safety.
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k207/Notebook_04/09081212-51-04GL-01.jpg

Congrats on the 200!

N.

 

[Lunar_Lander]

Thank you very much !

Your work looks really nice. It's cool that you work out all that (although you stated yourself that you better should work on the rocket itself )!

I can say to your question about LOX handling (that was your post of August 1st): In the Apollo times (and I think it is still done like that today), LOX and LH2 were stored in two big spherical tanks in the vicinity of Pads 39A and B. The LOX tank was white on top and black on the bottom (indeed like the gondolas of the stratosphere balloons in the 1930s!). Fuel was/is transfered by a pipeline to the pad.

I wanted to start making the Blue Streak today only to find that I only have normal 75 g/m² paper, instead of the heavy 100 g/m² paper recommended. Remembering my hard time with the NASA Galileo model I made from normal paper, I'll try getting heavy paper this time. (BTW: He is working on an Europa I model at the moment !)

To your August 1st post again: Thank you for the links!!! I think I have asked you about that, but could you please tell me again from which book you got the scans you showed me? (I mean now the one page describing the destruction system)

Some years ago I was stunned by the low payload capacity of the Europa (only 45 kg into escape trajectory!). When reading that after one Europa II try the programme ended, I somehow was sure that there had been an Europa III (at least in the planning). Again, when finding that Ariane was based on the Europa IIIB proposal, I was stunned once more!
Back then I also had made thoughts on how to improve Europa, even to an Europa IV and V (with the latter looking like Ariane 5 in Europa look, so it would have had the look of a Titan III/IV ). I would have raised Italy, Holland and Belgium from their state of being only "supplemental" states, maybe giving them their own stage on the rocket. And also activating the Scandinavian countries too.

 

[Notebook]

Thanks for the kind words, Lunar Lander, I've finished the lightning tower, and starting on the launcher part next:
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k207/Notebook_04/09081221-14-29GL-01.jpg


I've seen the paper models, they pop up when you search anything on BLue Streak. Looks good, might use the 'Z' pattern as a template for texture when I get to the tank stages!

The book you are asking about is at the bottom of this frame:
http://www.bis-spaceflight.com/page128.htm

I must admit I haven't looked much at Europa as a launcher yet, so I don't know how well it compared with others at the time. Blue streak as a first stage was getting on a bit by the late Sixties. I think there are some graphs of payload/orbits in the Charles Martin book, I'll have a look.

N.

 

[tblaxland]

@tl8 and tblaxland: What exactly is the book you mentioned about? About all of the Blue Streak/Europa I activities (and Black Arrow also)?

I presume so. All I got was the title from the Singtel Optus guy. Google Books found this description for me:

Fire across the Desert is the history of one of most significant defence undertakings Australia has embarked upon in peacetime. For a third of a century the United Kingdom and Australia co-operated closely in building and operating a major missile testing range which at its peak reached far across our continent. This joint project began under the Chifley government and continued unbroken until 1980. Australia's participation in the joint project was one of the key determinants in shaping our defence policy, and helped us come of age as a scientifically and technologically oriented nation. The joint project indisputably accelerated the formation of a competent body of defence science staff in Australia and was a catalyst for the formation of today's Defence Science and Technology Organisation. Australia's approach to defence has, of necessity, changed fundamentally since the earlier post-war years, but much of the expertise gained on Woomera work has since flowed into current projects in keeping with our national defence priorities.

http://books.google.com.au/books?id...efox-a&source=gbs_book_other_versions_r&cad=3
​

 

[Notebook]

To Lunar Lander:

Found this on Europa II:
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k207/Notebook_04/img038.jpg

How good a performance that is compared to contemporary launchers, I'll leave that to you.

General question:

Looking at the range map from 6A:
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k207/Notebook_04/img039.jpg

I've looked all down the coast-line from Broome in Google Earth, and can't find Talbarno?
Found a Talgarno VIC, but thats 180 degrees from the correct launch direction. Looks a bit populated too!

Anyone live there, been there, relatives/friends there?

N.

 

[tblaxland]

Anyone live there, been there, relatives/friends there?

An old name for Anna Plains Launch Site perhaps? It is certainly in the right vicinity. http://www.astronautix.com/sites/annlains.htm

 

[Notebook]

Could be, there's some buildings at
-19.253254° 121.487617°

Maybe that is the place known as Talbarno. Its hard to tell from that diagram, but you can make out that it lies between the 19-20 longtitude, 120-122 longitude. Maybe it had more significance then?
N.