OS WARS MEGA THREAD (Now debating proprietary vs. open-source!)

Scarecrow

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Did you misunderstand me, or twist that? I have said repeatedly that the effect of this is a continued push back on both sides - software reaches a point where people need more powerful hardware, and that then enables software to do more, and on and on it goes. The result is that we have immensely powerful and ridiculously cheap computers. THAT is a good thing, and THAT is what I talked about. You think that is thoroughly ridiculous?

Ah, I did misunderstand that slightly. It makes more sense now. However, what I think is bad is when software package A that does X is augmented to also do Y at the expense of it's ability to do X. Usually the solution is to have the Y ability be a separate package, or make Y an option that doesn't have any effect unless activated, or whatever. That's what I think of as bloat. It's very bad when you must upgrade hardware specifically because your software is bloated, and there is no appreciable difference between old software on old hardware, and new software on new hardware. Now if you actually needed feature Y, then this is fine, but when you don't (and you don't need features Z, alpha, beta, gamma, or delta either) then this is bad.

As above, you will see that I have been illustrating how improved hardware power means reduced prices, not just for the top of the line stuff (though there too), but also for the bottom end stuff - all sectors of the computer market have gotten more powerful and cheaper, because of what I outlined above. So yet again, I'm in favor of low prices, and showing how you are benefiting from them, yet you claim the opposite?

I don't claim the exact opposite, which would be either that more development at the high end means higher prices at the low end, or that less development at the high end means lower prices at the low end. It's true that those are stupid positions to take. What I do believe is that if there is less development at the high end, that that will not decrease the rate at which prices are falling at the low end. This is because (taking the extreme case for simpler terminology, in spite of a more moderated reality), if there is no market for high end computers, then manufacturers won't put their R&D money into making the high end higher. They will instead put it into making the low end cheaper, which is also a perfectly viable developmental direction. And this doesn't negatively impact the people who want supercomputers, because if the low end computers are small and cheap, they can just buy more of them. There is more than one way to get to any given destination, and even so, no single destination is best for everyone.
 

movieman

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A DX9 graphics card with 128mb memory? Please, that's not high-end.

I believe 60+% of new PCs come with integrated graphics chips, most of them Intel; compared to those, a five-year-old Radeon is high-end.

Heck, in my house we have:

Windows PC, Geforce 7800
Windows laptop, Integrated Intel crap
Linux desktop, Integrated AMD crap
Linux MythTV box, Integrated Intel crap

The integrated Intel chips don't even support DX7 properly, and while you can run DX9 software, you can't do so at any reasonable frame-rates. The integrated AMD chips are better, but they're still scraping the bottom of the barrel.
 

Hielor

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I believe 60+% of new PCs come with integrated graphics chips, most of them Intel; compared to those, a five-year-old Radeon is high-end.

Heck, in my house we have:

Windows PC, Geforce 7800
Windows laptop, Integrated Intel crap
Linux desktop, Integrated AMD crap
Linux MythTV box, Integrated Intel crap

The integrated Intel chips don't even support DX7 properly, and while you can run DX9 software, you can't do so at any reasonable frame-rates. The integrated AMD chips are better, but they're still scraping the bottom of the barrel.

The integrated chips will run Win7 fine, you just won't be able to have Aero.
 

Usquanigo

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I think the only applications that actually require more than a modern low-end system(***) are games, simulations like Orbiter, and very job-specific software like 3D renderers and video editing software. The OS should not count as an application: it should only assist the user in running applications, provide a user interface for that, and, okay, give a nice experience to the user(****). For the rest, the OS should not eat resources, but give them to the apps instead. I don't mind when the OS takes 10% of the resources, but when it takes 50% for no reason, I will start looking for a more efficient OS. When it has a good reason, I will start looking for better hardware.

Great. And this means that EVERYONE should use this minimalist approach, because the VERY THING which drives the price down is bad? This isn't a matter of preference for you (guys), it's religious. And you apparently don't care and don't want to see the symbiotic relationship involving the thing you hate so much that has gotten us where we are today.

If your OS is taking 50% of your resources, get more resources. And don't give me crap about price. It's far too cheap, and far too plentiful today. The applications ALONE would demand more power, even IF you got an OS to run well on whatever museum piece you are trying to claim as being "reasonable".

Stop taking it to the extreme and trying to claim that it means spending $7000 on a balls to the wall monster workstation.

And as for the OS, it IS an application. As more stuff is added, it takes more power. Text editing, reading and working with zip files, file compression, defragging, visual toys, widgets/gadgets.... (and more) it was all an application at one point in time (or could have been had development gone another route). It all takes resources. As that functionality gets subsumed into the OS, the req's for the OS itself increase, while the number of additional apps you need decreases.

Then there is plug n play. The reason it works better on a Mac and why Windows has such a large foot print, is drive and hardware control. Windows has to have a HUGE DB of drivers to work with as much stuff as possible to ease the user experience, Apple controls the hardware and drivers and can not only ensure better reliability (between hardware, drivers and OS), but also get by with a smaller footprint, while STILL handling plug n play properly. Another reason your Linux has such a small footprint too - it tends to be customized.

Compare -
(btw, given your philosophy, get one of those and try to do all that stuff you do. Afterall, it's not about power, but efficiency, right? Look at it scream with the incredibly resource lite OS that's on it. </sarcasm>)

To -

This is a fictional OS/Cyberspace setup from a mid-90's game (during the (missed) FMV era). Games and applications and internet/network connectivity and Operating Systems are and have been converging. To do it means needing power. Picture for a moment this was real. Aside from the intense HMD and interface (hardware) setup you need, it also means heavy duty video processing, audio processing, intense interface processing, and of course a high speed connection (and more traffic means more processing power required).

I want that. I came from a command line, and hated the GUI, but now I understand the power, and I want the Gibson-esque Cyberspace, and that means BIG hardware power, not small.

Speaking of Gibson....

Just like the above - you can see the heavy game influence in hardware, and graphic interface, but it's not used for gaming exclusively (there). That would be a heavy and extremely feature rich OS, and require some serious hardware and a big pipe.

Now again, if you guys want light and small and goodwill hardware, great. Why claim it to be a superior way and hold others back? Notice that nobody is telling you you can't have that? Nor that you MUST spend lots of money?



Let's say:
AMD Athlon 2.6GHz
512MiB RAM @ 333MHz
120GiB harddisk
ATI Radeon 9200 (AGP 8x, 256MiB video RAM)

When did you buy that, and how long have you had it? (and why haven't you pushed it higher?)

No matter WHAT OS you use, that's too little RAM and too small a drive for that speed processor (my video and audio collection alone would nearly fill that drive - even before getting to installed apps)
 

Hielor

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Which means you might as well run XP.
Because Aero is totally the only new feature in Win7, mirite?

Go download the beta and try it for yourself.
 

movieman

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If your OS is taking 50% of your resources, get more resources.

This is the attitude that's given us graphics cards that use 300W of power and need a fan that could lift a 747.

My new PC uses less than 50W total at full load, and it's still good enough to transcode two SDTV videos to MPEG-4 in realtime while transcoding a third video to Flash in realtime so it can stream to my laptop from the web server, while doing commercial-scanning on a fourth video at 4x realtime, while capturing another video to disk from the TV tuner while web-browsing at the console; and, unless the DVD drive is chugging away, it's barely audible in the process. Why would I want to use vastly more power just to run an operating system?

And I'm getting particularly averse to noise after spending much of the last two months surrounded by a couple of dozen dual quad-core Xeon servers that are so loud I have to wear ear-defenders.

And don't give me crap about price.
Why pay $500 for a cheap Windows system for email and web-browsing when you can pay $250 for a cheap Linux system?

The applications ALONE would demand more power, even IF you got an OS to run well on whatever museum piece you are trying to claim as being "reasonable".
99% of the time the dual-core CPU in my Linux desktop is clocked down to 1GHz. Most applications simply don't need much CPU power these days; Microsoft are trying to figure out how to suck up as much CPU power as possible when they should be trying to figure out how to give people the application performance they want on cheaper and cheaper systems.

Windows has to have a HUGE DB of drivers to work with as much stuff as possible to ease the user experience
Yet when I buy new hardware for Windows I normally have to download and install a new driver, whereas when I buy new hardware for Linux, the driver is normally already there; of course the fact that Linux drivers aren't wrapped in 50MB installers probably helps... I seem to remember the last Windows video driver I downloaded was around 80MB, which is absolutely insane.
 

Hielor

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This is the attitude that's given us graphics cards that use 300W of power and need a fan that could lift a 747.
Must be a new generation of 747 then. And those are the kind of graphics cards that give me gorgeous scenes in games. More, please.

My new PC uses less than 50W total at full load, and it's still good enough to transcode two SDTV videos to MPEG-4 in realtime while transcoding a third video to Flash in realtime so it can stream to my laptop from the web server, while doing commercial-scanning on a fourth video at 4x realtime, while capturing another video to disk from the TV tuner while web-browsing at the console; and, unless the DVD drive is chugging away, it's barely audible in the process. Why would I want to use vastly more power just to run an operating system?
Grats?

And I'm getting particularly averse to noise after spending much of the last two months surrounded by a couple of dozen dual quad-core Xeon servers that are so loud I have to wear ear-defenders.
Well, with the ear-defenders, it shouldn't be that much noise.

Why pay $500 for a cheap Windows system for email and web-browsing when you can pay $250 for a cheap Linux system?
If the $250 gets you all the computer you need and it does what you need it to, that's great. The operating system doesn't matter if all you want to do is e-mail and web browsing.

99% of the time the dual-core CPU in my Linux desktop is clocked down to 1GHz. Most applications simply don't need much CPU power these days; Microsoft are trying to figure out how to suck up as much CPU power as possible...
Actually, I can guarantee you that no one at Microsoft is doing any such thing. None of the meetings I was at over the summer were "Hey, let's see just how much we can slow down these computers." They were all "Okay, these are the features that people are asking for, that's what we need to give and we need to make it run no slower than Vista, preferably just as fast as XP."

...when they should be trying to figure out how to give people the application performance they want on cheaper and cheaper systems.
No. The market for new OSes and new systems is not "Let's do more with less." It is, and always has been, "Let's do more at the same price point" or "Let's do the same at a lower price point." Eventually you get to the point where you can do more with less, but that's a two-step process.

The main Windows lines have never targeted low-performance machines. That's not the market share they're looking for, and that's not the niche they're going to focus on. If you're always making software that can run just as well on the oldest machines out there, you're going to reach a point at which you cannot possibly get more features in to your product, and there would be no point for hardware companies to make better stuff, because it won't do you any good.

Bloodspray's said it several times and I don't think you've gotten it yet. The reason that the hardware which is good enough for you is so cheap nowadays is because it's no longer top of the line. Progression of the bleeding edge allows price drops throughout the lineup.

Yet when I buy new hardware for Windows I normally have to download and install a new driver, whereas when I buy new hardware for Linux, the driver is normally already there;...
Windows does not contain all the newest drivers for all the possible types of hardware out there. It does contain basic drivers for almost all the possible types of hardware out there. Of course if you want the company's latest and greatest, you're going to need to download it from them.

...of course the fact that Linux drivers aren't wrapped in 50MB installers probably helps... I seem to remember the last Windows video driver I downloaded was around 80MB, which is absolutely insane.
Yes, because Microsoft has anything at all to do with the contents of an installer provided by Nvidia or Radeon.
 

movieman

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Because Aero is totally the only new feature in Win7, mirite?

Aside from the fancy windows, what does the average user gain from switching to 'Windows 7' from XP?

I mean that quite seriously. There were clear benefits from moving from Win98 to XP, whereas even Microsoft couldn't come up with any way of convincing people to upgrade from XP to Vista, which is why they had to try to force them by refusing to release DX10 for XP.

I haven't seen a single thing on Vista (and 'Windows 7' is just a tweaked Vista, which is why it's being released so fast) that would make me want to switch. Microsoft are actively putting me off the idea of buying a new Windows desktop machine to run newer games because I'll have to load Vista onto it.


-----Post Added-----


Actually, I can guarantee you that no one at Microsoft is doing any such thing.

Odd, because I've heard people say that Microsoft employees basically told them precisely that; Vista was supposed to suck up all that extra power to give people a reason to buy faster PCs with new hardware, because most people didn't need a 3GHz octo-core CPU for email and web browsing. Unfortunately people seem to have twigged to the fact that they don't need to buy such systems, despite Microsoft's attempts to convince them otherwise.

No. The market for new OSes and new systems is not "Let's do more with less." It is, and always has been, "Let's do more at the same price point" or "Let's do the same at a lower price point."

This is no longer the 1990s. You seem to be stuck in them, along with Microsoft... the market for new OSes these days is increasingly going to be doing more with less, because computers are well past 'fast enough' for the majority of users. More to the point, in a recession, it's going to be about doing more at less cost, which is a big problem when one of your competitors is giving their operating system away for free; you can't make a living for long out of selling a $300 OS for a $200 PC.

The main Windows lines have never targeted low-performance machines. That's not the market share they're looking for, and that's not the niche they're going to focus on.

Then they're toast, because that's one of the largest growing areas in the PC marketplace. Why do you think they had to relent and continue selling XP? Because all those cheap new netbooks are unable to run a pig like Vista; like the dinosaurs of the automotive industry, Microsoft is building a software SUV when people are switching to Civics.

If you're always making software that can run just as well on the oldest machines out there, you're going to reach a point at which you cannot possibly get more features in to your product

In the majority of software I use today, most new features are a problem, not a solution. Too much of the software I use comes out with 'new features' solely as a reason to try to justify charging more money, not because they're actually useful to more than a few percent of their customers.

The exceptions are things like video editing and 3D rendering, which are still a long way from 'good enough'. But the market for those is small compared to web browsing, email and word processing.

Windows does not contain all the newest drivers for all the possible types of hardware out there.

But you just said that Windows is so bloated because it has to contain vast numbers of drivers for all kinds of hardware. You can't have it both ways.
 

Linguofreak

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As above, you will see that I have been illustrating how improved hardware power means reduced prices, not just for the top of the line stuff (though there too), but also for the bottom end stuff - all sectors of the computer market have gotten more powerful and cheaper, because of what I outlined above. So yet again, I'm in favor of low prices, and showing how you are benefiting from them, yet you claim the opposite?

The general drive is for more performance per unit of resources expended. For some people that shows up as more performance for the same resources, for others it shows up as the same performance for less resources. Either one will drive manufacturers to design hardware that can give a better performance to resource ratio, and both will benefit from a better performance to resource ratio. The difference is that the whole cycle is now being driven more from the low-resource side than it was before. So you shouldn't be suprised when people demand out of software what they're demanding out of hardware, equal performance in a smaller, cheaper package.
 

Hielor

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Aside from the fancy windows, what does the average user gain from switching to 'Windows 7' from XP?

I mean that quite seriously. There were clear benefits from moving from Win98 to XP, whereas even Microsoft couldn't come up with any way of convincing people to upgrade from XP to Vista, which is why they had to try to force them by refusing to release DX10 for XP.
I'm not going to give you the entire features list for Win7 and Vista. You can look that up yourself.

I haven't seen a single thing on Vista (and 'Windows 7' is just a tweaked Vista, which is why it's being released so fast) that would make me want to switch. Microsoft are actively putting me off the idea of buying a new Windows desktop machine to run newer games because I'll have to load Vista onto it.
Win7 is just as much a tweaked Vista as XP was a tweaked 2000.

"Released so fast"? Let's look at the release dates for the standard desktop OSes, from Win95 on:

Windows 95: 1995 Aug 24
Windows 98: 1998 June 25 (~34 months)
Windows ME: 2000 Sept 14 (~27 months)
Windows XP: 2001 Oct 25 (~13 months)
Windows Vista (Retail): 2007 Jan 30 (~63 months)
Windows 7: 2009 Q3/Q4 (~30-36 months)

Notice that XP's long lifespan of more than five years is not the norm for Windows OSes--it's the outlier. Throughout Windows' history, OSes have been released on about a 3-year product cycle. Win7 will be no different.

XP has stuck around for so long because it was an excellent OS, yes--and that's been aided by the fact that Vista had an extremely rocky start. Also note how quickly ME got replaced: that was when they dropped the separate business/consumer model and just combined them, because ME was nothing special.

All I can say is: try the Win7 beta. If you refuse to try it, then I'm sorry, you're just being stubborn. My favorite part is how you've never even used Vista and you're complaining about it.

If you want to get a brand-new gaming rig, then yes you'll need Vista. Except, I thought we already established that Vista runs perfectly well on a gaming rig? You were complaining that Vista (and Win7) won't work on low-end machines. Are we now talking about high-end gaming rigs? Because if we are, Linux's inability to play games means that Linux just lost.

I would, however, not suggest buying a new Vista computer anytime soon. Wait for Win7, or if you don't want to wait, put the Win7 beta on it (and save some money in the process) (note that having a beta OS as your primary and/or only OS is done at your own risk).


-----Post Added-----


Odd, because I've heard people say that Microsoft employees basically told them precisely that; Vista was supposed to suck up all that extra power to give people a reason to buy faster PCs with new hardware, because most people didn't need a 3GHz octo-core CPU for email and web browsing. Unfortunately people seem to have twigged to the fact that they don't need to buy such systems, despite Microsoft's attempts to convince them otherwise.
A Microsoft employee would never say that. Think about it, that would be an awesome way for them to get fired. I would imagine that I have much closer experience than your "well i heard some people say that some people said" situation.

This is no longer the 1990s. You seem to be stuck in them, along with Microsoft... the market for new OSes these days is increasingly going to be doing more with less, because computers are well past 'fast enough' for the majority of users. More to the point, in a recession, it's going to be about doing more at less cost, which is a big problem when one of your competitors is giving their operating system away for free; you can't make a living for long out of selling a $300 OS for a $200 PC.
People who want cheap computers should not buy Windows. I fully encourage them to look into Linux at that point, because if they want cheap, that's their best option.

Then they're toast, because that's one of the largest growing areas in the PC marketplace. Why do you think they had to relent and continue selling XP? Because all those cheap new netbooks are unable to run a pig like Vista; like the dinosaurs of the automotive industry, Microsoft is building a software SUV when people are switching to Civics.
The netbooks were an extremely weird occurrence in computer hardware and pretty much went against the "faster = better" philosophy that computer hardware manufacturers have had since the dawn of the tech age. For now, there will always be people who are still buying SUVs. As for the Civic market--Microsoft will either adapt and begin having lightweight versions, or they will die. It's that simple.

In the majority of software I use today, most new features are a problem, not a solution. Too much of the software I use comes out with 'new features' solely as a reason to try to justify charging more money, not because they're actually useful to more than a few percent of their customers.

The exceptions are things like video editing and 3D rendering, which are still a long way from 'good enough'. But the market for those is small compared to web browsing, email and word processing.
That's an issue you have with all of the software industry, not just Windows or Microsoft. Most people want features, apparently, so that's what MS gives them.

But you just said that Windows is so bloated because it has to contain vast numbers of drivers for all kinds of hardware. You can't have it both ways.
I noticed that you didn't quote the sentence I had right after that in which I said that Windows has basic drivers for almost all kinds of hardware. And no, Bloodspray was the one who said that originally.

Re-read the sentence after the one you quoted.
 

Scarecrow

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If your OS is taking 50% of your resources, get more resources. And don't give me crap about price. It's far too cheap, and far too plentiful today. The applications ALONE would demand more power, even IF you got an OS to run well on whatever museum piece you are trying to claim as being "reasonable".

WHY????? Price is not crap. Mabye you're significantly richer than I am, but I DO NOT like spending hundreds of dollars when there are perfectly viable opportunities for less money.

...Compare -
YouTube - Olivetti M15 running CP/M (CPM)
(btw, given your philosophy, get one of those and try to do all that stuff you do. Afterall, it's not about power, but efficiency, right? Look at it scream with the incredibly resource lite OS that's on it. </sarcasm>)

There are limits, of course. To use your own terminology, stop taking it to the extreme. But I'll bet that if that OS could be compiled for my computer, and optimized for the hardware, and generally tweaked in other ways, that it would outperform Vista. Granted, Vista provides more features, but everything is a trade off.

To -
YouTube - Ripper Longplay Pt. 26/29 (Act 3 Part 7/10)

This is a fictional OS/Cyberspace setup from a mid-90's game (during the (missed) FMV era). Games and applications and internet/network connectivity and Operating Systems are and have been converging. To do it means needing power. Picture for a moment this was real. Aside from the intense HMD and interface (hardware) setup you need, it also means heavy duty video processing, audio processing, intense interface processing, and of course a high speed connection (and more traffic means more processing power required).

I want that. I came from a command line, and hated the GUI, but now I understand the power, and I want the Gibson-esque Cyberspace, and that means BIG hardware power, not small.

You want that. Do others? Not necessarily. Are they preventing you from getting that? Not at all. Go right ahead.

Now again, if you guys want light and small and goodwill hardware, great. Why claim it to be a superior way and hold others back? Notice that nobody is telling you you can't have that? Nor that you MUST spend lots of money?

They're not holding others back. And it's true that it's not superior for everything, but it certainly is for some things. Notice that nobody is telling you you can't have a supercomputer (or just a very powerful desktop, which even I would like, if I could afford it).





When did you buy that, and how long have you had it? (and why haven't you pushed it higher?)

No matter WHAT OS you use, that's too little RAM and too small a drive for that speed processor (my video and audio collection alone would nearly fill that drive - even before getting to installed apps)

Well now, it all depends on what you're doing, now doesn't it? You refer to your video and audio collection. Fine. Now answer me this: if he doesn't have such a video and audio collection, then why should he have a hard disk as big as you have? It seems fine for him. And I might add that nearly all my data, (except for backups) would fit on that, including a half dozen or so virtual machines, and OS images that I don't actually need. And about the RAM to processor speed ratio: I would want a blindingly fast processor (or set of many processors) and wouldn't give a darn about my 128MB of ram, if all I wanted to with my computer was break cryptographic keys by brute force. Of course, that's probably not what he's doing with his computer, but you should get the idea that everything is application dependant, and your idea of what applications are worth-while is not universally shared.
 

cjp

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And don't give me crap about price. It's far too cheap, and far too plentiful today. The applications ALONE would demand more power, even IF you got an OS to run well on whatever museum piece you are trying to claim as being "reasonable".
I care about price, and I'm sure most people do. Currently, the price where I stop thinking about price (for long-lasting products like computers) is about 25 euro. For people in developing countries it's probably a lot less. They want computers too, and you have to know they represent a far bigger market than the rich countries.

the application requirements do matter, up to a certain point. Suppose an OS could be made 10 times more efficient; if that means the difference between 10% resources for the OS or 1% resources for the OS, then I don't mind: I only need 10% faster hardware for my application. But if it's the difference between 100% for the OS and 10% for the OS, it's an entirely different story.

And as for the OS, it IS an application. As more stuff is added, it takes more power. Text editing, reading and working with zip files, file compression, defragging, visual toys, widgets/gadgets.... (and more) it was all an application at one point in time (or could have been had development gone another route). It all takes resources. As that functionality gets subsumed into the OS, the req's for the OS itself increase, while the number of additional apps you need decreases.
Defragging and widgets are OS tasks. You can't use widgets in a useful way without applications, and defragging is a system maintenance utility. Working with zip files is a bit in-between, but it isn't useful in itself. Text editing is an application, even when it's distributed with the OS.

Compare -
YouTube - Olivetti M15 running CP/M (CPM)
(btw, given your philosophy, get one of those and try to do all that stuff you do. Afterall, it's not about power, but efficiency, right? Look at it scream with the incredibly resource lite OS that's on it. </sarcasm>)
I know it's sarcasm, but let me respond to it:
Commandline environments are great. They are resource-efficient and incredibly productive for people who know how to use them. But, while GUIs are a lot more resource-hungry, they do have a lot of added value: they are a lot more intuitive for the average person. So, for the average desktop, they're worth the money.
I still have to see a 3D environment with the same amount of added value. For now, it's more like a gadget.

And about "get one of those and try to do all that stuff you do": I have a very lightweight Debian Linux system running as a server for hobby purposes. Until not too long ago, it ran on a Pentium 75 with 48MiB RAM. But of course I don't try to do everything on that computer.

Now again, if you guys want light and small and goodwill hardware, great. Why claim it to be a superior way and hold others back? Notice that nobody is telling you you can't have that? Nor that you MUST spend lots of money?
Different people want different things. It's perfectly fine to me when people who want a heavy machine with a heavy OS get what they want. But it needs to be a free choice, and I'm afraid it won't stay a free choice. There will be applications that depend on Vista or 7, because e.g. they use some system call that didn't exist yet in XP, but that could have run on cheaper hardware if the OS wasn't so hungry.

A distant friend of me made a word guessing game. It's the kind of game that could easily be text-mode, but he added all kinds of fancy 3D effects. That's perfectly fine to me, in fact I like it that way, but he used Direct3D 10. Now I have to wait until Wine starts supporting DX10, or microsoft finally releases an XP version. If I really wanted to run the game now, that would force me to use Vista or 7, and as a result force me to upgrade my hardware. While I'm sure the game itself is light enough to run on my current machine.

When did you buy that, and how long have you had it? (and why haven't you pushed it higher?)

No matter WHAT OS you use, that's too little RAM and too small a drive for that speed processor (my video and audio collection alone would nearly fill that drive - even before getting to installed apps)
I bought it a long time ago (maybe about 5 years ago). It was a quite decent amount of RAM in those days, and the processor was fairly high-end. Since then, clock rates have kind of stopped growing due to physical constraints: now the growth is in having multiple cores. My processor is single-core. But RAM amounts are still increasing.

I didn't push it higher because I didn't need to. I still use the computer for the same things I bought it for, so it's still sufficient.

I am thinking of buying new hardware, because I want to run GTA IV. Do you think this system can be uprgaded to run GTA IV, or should I go for a completely new system? What are the requirements of GTA IV anyways?
 

RisingFury

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You guys are a trip. You hate M$ so much that you actively preach going backward on the hardware front. If everybody thought like you, nobody would ever upgrade (anything), we'd be extremely limited in what our hardware and software could do, and the whole industry would dry up and blow away, and in time, even replacement parts would become unobtainable.


I'm sorry, but this can't be further from the truth.


It's not development of the OS that drives the development of new, powerful hardware. It's mostly GAMING. Latest games (by that I mean latest at the time) are the ones who have to run on best hardware and if you look at the race between ATI and nVidia, you'll notice it's mostly about the high end graphic cards.


If development of new OS would drive the computing power-craze then why have the past few years, with only XP available from MS, seen a 10 fold increase in computing power? To run XP better? Come on.



The OS requirements should be as low as possible, leaving resources for the applications that run on it. That means if you have 1 GB of RAM, let 950 MB be used for applications, not 250.

Why would someone like my grandpa, who checks the news online and plays solitaire need 2 GB of RAM, where the same function could be achieved with a lighter OS running o a P3?
 

Hielor

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I am thinking of buying new hardware, because I want to run GTA IV. Do you think this system can be uprgaded to run GTA IV, or should I go for a completely new system? What are the requirements of GTA IV anyways?

It will need more RAM before being able to run GTA IV acceptably. At this point, however, I'd say you're better off buying a new one. You can get a pretty awesome gaming rig at this point for not much more than a few hundred dollars.

However, as I've mentioned before, if OS price is a concern for you and you don't *need* to play the game *now*, you should wait until Win7 comes out.
 

tblaxland

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Seriously, do you work for Microsoft?
I can't speak for Win7, but integrated chips run Vista just fine without Aero. We have a whole office full of Dell machines to vouch for that. Not one complaint from the staff about graphics.
 

Tommy

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There's that mythical linux 286 that can stream full screen video at 1280x1024 res at 30fps and relay it with a USB web-cam again.

No one here is claiming you can do that on a 286. It can be done on a processor running at less than XP's minimum requirements, much less Vista's. Less than 10% of all destop users (personal or businesss) have any real need for more than a 1Ghz processor, and an OS any more advanced than Win2K. They don't need or use features added since Office 2000, and were forced to upgrade (and re-train employees on the new versions) simply to support MS's bottom line. While this may have been good for MS's economy, it was detrimental to the economy of the vast majority of business, and the economy in general. Money spent on un-needed uprades was money not spent researching new products or implementing new services. It meant an expense with no actual ROI, spending money for no net gain.

Yeah.... this is why we can't get the sales staff to change their practices to take better advantage of the tools they already have, even though the "difference" would be minimal and yeild greater results.

This is a failure in management, and has nothing to do with which OS or software you use. It actually makes my point - it's as difficult and expensive to train people to use what you have as it is to train them on a new (but very similar in function) software. It's as easy (or difficult, depending on how you want to see it) to train someone to use Open Office instead of Office 98 as it is to train them to use Office 2007 instead of Office 98. The "they already know how to use what we have" argument fails, since Windows or Office upgrades require retraining as much as migrating to Linux or Open Office.

And the old super heavy luggables that masquaraded as laptops with tiny screens and few interfaces simply aren't going to cut it when the sales force demos to a client.

No-one claims that nobody needs newer equipment. However, Linux will work on that shiny new laptop also. Engineers, Video Editors, and others have a real need for faster systems. The secretary, however, can get by just as well on a 1.2Ghz Pentium, and upgrading their computer beyond that is a waste of money and resources.

See, when I first started as an on-staffer (rather than consultant), I was like you. I thought, why not go to pricewatch and get the cheapest everything, I can assemble it, and we can save a few hundred. That was without even having to train any of the other staff on anything new. But the simple act of going to multiple places to buy stuff made it too expensive (purhcasing and recieving dept's costs), not to mention ANY potential issue with ANYthing at all, took longer and more money to deal with. Going to an OEM was cheaper, even if it appeared more expensive.

No, you were not like me. I've never advocated getting the cheapest anything. I have always advocated buying quality products, even when more expensive initially. Spending an extra $50 on a quality power supply instead of a cheap "no-name" can save you hundreds down the road. As you pointed out before, CDW is a very valuable resource.

We are a FOR proft, but we are a TINY company that was bought 2 years ago for 3 million dollars

3 million dollars is not a small business. Small businesses have values well under One million, usually less than $2k. That is a medium business, even if you only employ a half dozen people.

Speaking of which..... now that I think about the shop.... we have a Hendricks 5-axis router (cost well into the 6 figures), it's run by a desktop PC. For something that expensive, and that important, you'd think that the OEM would have used Linux on the white-box they supplied. They didn't. It was initially 95. Never had any problems with it. Now it's on 2K Pro, still no problems. Had it for years.

Modern routers don't require a seperate PC to run them. But thanks for making my point - you have a solution that works and don't see a good reason to upgrade it to a modern more powerfull solution - even though a new Cisco router would be more powerfull, and cost much less than what it's replacing did.

Well given that I go through Windows Explorer and double click on the mp3 which launches WinAMP

That's fine if you want to play a single song, but winapm's playlists rely on paths so moving that collection to a different drive will render any playlist you have useless. Also, please note that I said "your media player" not "Media Player". I also use Winamp, but not the latest version which is packed with features I would never use and hogs resources I'd rather use for something else.

Quote:
Anyone who can't afford that 3Ghz P4.
I'm sure you could get one for $50 these days.

I'm sure I'm not the only person here who would like to know where. Provided, of course, that this is made with quality components and didn't "fall off the back of a truck" somewhere.

Large buisnesses are HP, M$, GM, etc. Small buisnesses are in the sub 100 desktop range.

Small businesses are in the sub 20 desktop range, and provide 65% of the jobs in this country, according to the Dept. of Labor.

That one person's desktop running a DB is great until they kick the plug, or spill something on it, or break the optical drive (and have to shut it down) or get hit with malware, etc. Great for your 5 node network,

Yes, great for a 5 node network, which is the majority of networks in this country. Yet earlier, you said that they should go to the expense of getting a server.

And also, there is nothing wrong with leveraging your product. I don't HAVE to sell you something, I didn't force you to not install the competitors products, I just chose not to sell to you if you did so. It's a subtle point, but an important one.

Actually, MS DID force people to intall their product, even if a competitors product was installed also. That's one of the reasons they were convicted. Forcing someone to pay for your product when they don't want it is wrong. It's essentially a "tax" and only the Government has the right to tax people.

The idea behind competition isn't doing whatever it takes to win. Its to be the best, and win on merit. If you have to break the rules to win, then your product isn't good enough. It should win simply because it's better than the competition, not because it broke the rules to kill the competition. Should football players carry guns on the feild so they can shoot the opposing players to win, or should they just be better players?

Technically it's your duty as a citizen to not follow bad law.

Absolutely incorrect. Please re-read the constitution you claim to revere. Your duty is to protest those laws, petition your representatives to change them, or elect representatives who will. You can challenge a law in court without needing to break it first - that is one of the functions of the Supreme Court. Not following the rules simply because you don't like them doesn't always make you any sort of a patriot, just a criminal.

Trouble is, people think "just because you disagree with the law doesn't mean you can ignore it". And THAT mentality is why I'm convinced that the 18th Amendment wouldn't be repealed if it were passed today.

You can try to ignore a law you don't like, but it's not going to be easy when you're in jail for breaking it. And the 18th Amendment couldn't even get passed in the first place today. Several states have passed laws prohibiting same-sex marraiage,, and those laws usually get repealed by the state supreme courts because they are unconstitutional. The mechanism for rpeealing unjust laws is even stronger today than it was in the 30's, you just need to use the process and do it legally.

Agree with the last statement. But I only point out the "superiority of Windows" (if you wish to use that phrasing, I wouldn't, but hey...) because of the other side saying it sucks for everything, should NEVER be touched,

No-one in this thread said Windows sucks for everything. We just get tired of people like you who claim it's better than it is, and don't like the alternatives. You clearly seem to think that Windows is a better solution for everyone, when it's often not.

In short, the claims of Linux's ability to run on paperweights is the same thing as the ricer argument of horsepower per litre. It's a non-issue, and if we REALLY focused everything on that, we all suffer for it in the long run.

But that 300hp WRT wouldn't be avilable for you to own if "ricers" hadn't found ways to get more power from a smaller engine. The technology that is used to make those cars comes from "ricers", or hot rodders, if you prefer. The technology that Subaru uses to make it's WRT engines comes from their racing department. It was developed so that they could win against other cars without breaking the rules by having more displacement than the rules for that class allowed. If Subaru was the only car manufacturer (or just had an overwhelming semi-monopoly) they would have no reason to innovate, ant those high performance vehicals wouldn't ever have been created in the first place.

The same holds true for computers. If Windows had had any real competition all along, it would be far better today than it is. Look at how long Internet Explorer stagnated before Firefox started giving it a run for it's money. Microsoft may have helped the PC platform be what it is today, but it would be even better if they had had to actually compete on merit. It's not very intelligent to give them credit for helping advance a product when their business practice actually limited advancement, not fostered it. Would Intel be making multicore 45 nm processors available at such a low cost if they didn't have to compete with AMD? I think not.

If MS was truly responsible for pushing the advancement in hardware as you claim, no-one would be offering computers with 4 times the power needed to run Windows. The harware advances you credit MS for are the result of healthy competition between the hardware manufactuters, the same as the fast cars you like are the result of healthy competition between automakers. MS has nothing to do with it. They still compete to build the fastest supercomputer, even though no-one actually buys supercomputers anymore - they use distributed processing such as clusters and clouds. Historical fact of life - Competion breeds advancement - monopolies stifle it.

BTW, Heilor, Orbiter runs just fine on my 900Ghz PC with a 64MB graphics card. I don't need any more computer than I have to enjoy Orbiter, or any of the other games I personally play. I'd like to be playing GTA 4, and that won't run on this box. That's why I'm saving up for a PS3. It's a better platform for most of today's games than a PC.
 

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Absolutely incorrect. Please re-read the constitution you claim to revere. Your duty is to protest those laws, petition your representatives to change them, or elect representatives who will. You can challenge a law in court without needing to break it first - that is one of the functions of the Supreme Court. Not following the rules simply because you don't like them doesn't always make you any sort of a patriot, just a criminal.

Well, to be fair, you can't look to a legal document to tell you when it is and isn't OK to ignore the law. If you find an exception in the law and make use of it, that's not ignoring the law. As far as the law is concerned, it's never OK to ignore the law. But the duty Bloodspray mentions is enshrined in the Declaration of Independence, but the same document also mentions that the bar for when rebellion becomes a right and a duty is fairly high. Even if I believed antitrust laws were bad (I don't), they're not bad enough. Bad enough is when the law says to worship the president/king/chancellor/whatever as god. Bad enough is when the law says to turn Jews in so they can be taken to death camps. And so forth.
 

Hielor

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Seriously, do you work for Microsoft?
Whether or not I work for Microsoft is irrelevant. What is relevant is that I have used three separate machines on Vista that had no more than integrated graphics, and they ran fine for standard everyday tasks when Aero was disabled. They weren't particularly fast either. tblaxland agrees, so either he and I (and everyone else who runs Vista without complaining on an integrated chip) are crazy, or integrated graphics are fine if you don't use Aero.

I'd also like to point out that the Microsoft-published minimum specs for Win7 presented earlier in this thread included a similar point: Acceptable graphics card needed for Aero, 32MB (which is what most integrated graphics do) "card" needed to run it without Aero.

BTW, Heilor, Orbiter runs just fine on my 900Ghz PC with a 64MB graphics card. I don't need any more computer than I have to enjoy Orbiter, or any of the other games I personally play. I'd like to be playing GTA 4, and that won't run on this box. That's why I'm saving up for a PS3. It's a better platform for most of today's games than a PC.

The problem is with DirectX 7 (which was released 10 years ago). From what I gather, some MS exec decided that they could drop hardware support for DirectX versions prior to 9 in Vista and just run them in a software emulation layer. That doesn't particularly work well. However, with Doug's VistaBoost mod, I don't have as big of a problem in Orbiter any more. It still runs far slower than I'd like (and far slower than I think it should on this hardware), but it's very playable.

My laptop is processor-capped in these things already (I believe) so that certainly doesn't help. Gaming performance on most modern games is pretty much the same(if not better on Vista) between XP/Vista on identical systems--there's plenty of benchmarks out there showing that.

I've never been able to get into console gaming--I absolutely cannot stand the input controller. If I were able to use a keyboard and mouse to control my games on the PS3 or XBOX, I'd be all over that. I can't, so I'm not. If that works for you, go for it--a lot of developers are killing PC gaming anyway by either not releasing for the PC or delaying PC releases (like GTA IV) far behind the console releases, due to pirating fears.
 
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