Docking two ships whilst making interplanetary journey? Advice needed.

[pandadude]

A few threads down I asked about what ship I could use to travel to another planet in, using the DG-IV as a ship to land on the other planet etc.
Anyway, I settled on the DG-EX - it seemed good to use two different DG models and I also liked the control panel for the EX.
Obviously I can't launch them together though (as in I can't launch them attached to one another).
So what is the best method for launching them both into an Earth orbit, docking, then travelling to another planet (the docking doesn't necessarily have to be in that part of the sequence, I could dock after I've already made the burn towards the other planet and escaped Earth's SOI)?
Preferably, I would like to launch them together, but I don't think this is possible. I can't effectively fly them both (or just fly the EX and monitor the DG-IV's autopilot). This leads me to thinking the best thing to do would be to have the EX already in orbit and then fly the DG-IV to orbit, and then dock with the EX. But then I realised it would be difficult to get them both in the same place within a short space of time, dock, and leave Earth.
Now I think instead of using IMFD to set a course from the ground, I'd be best off doing it in two parts. The first part would involve me launching into orbit in the DG-IV and docking with the EX. The second part would involve leaving Earth after docking.
Then I realised I don't know how to use IMFD and plan stuff once I'm already in orbit.
So I have two questions:
1. Can anybody link me to an IMFD tutorial which teaches you about how to use it when you're already in orbit, taking into account that some element of planning needs to be done when I'm still on EArth's surface (otherwise I could be launching at a really poor time)? I've done the Mars Awaits tutorial in Go Play In Space which uses IMFD and found it very easy and intuitive, but that only covers using IMFD from the ground.
2. Can anybody suggest a better plan, seeing as my problem stems from not being able to envisage when I should dock with the EX? I'm open to any suggestions, the only thing I really want to be involved is flying the DG-IV from the KSC at the start (ie. I don't want to start with the DG-IV already in orbit or anything).
Sorry for the long post, I always seem to be asking for help as well. Thanks for helping me.
Cheers.

 

[Woo482]

use an energia launch vehicle > [ame="http://www.orbithangar.com/searchid.php?ID=1036"]ENERGY project, release 3[/ame]

 

[HiPotOk1978]

use an energia launch vehicle > http://www.orbithangar.com/searchid.php?ID=1036

Will that work? I am not even sure of the weight of the EX

Also, check out
[ame="http://www.orbithangar.com/searchid.php?ID=1447"]IMFD Tutorial - Europa to Callisto[/ame]

The idea of a transfer from Europa to Callisto is basically the same as a transfer from Earth to Mars. Just um..... bigger distances

 

[pandadude]

@woo, for which part would you recommned using the Energia, and for which spacecraft - the EX or the DGIV? Thanks for the advice, I just don't understand where to use it.

@HiPotOk, thanks for that tutorial link, when I get time to look at it, it looks like it could be very useful.

 

[TSPenguin]

You will have trouble launching the docked vehicles out of earths SOI, or perform any other maneuver.
Unless one of the ships can compensate for the new uneven center of gravity you will have a hard time compensating manualy.
AFAIK the dragonfly has such a mode. Maybe that code could be used to make this function into an MFD?!

 

[pandadude]

You will have trouble launching the docked vehicles out of earths SOI, or perform any other maneuver.
Unless one of the ships can compensate for the new uneven center of gravity you will have a hard time compensating manualy.
AFAIK the dragonfly has such a mode. Maybe that code could be used to make this function into an MFD?!

Yea I was kind of worried about that as well.
I thought I might be able to get around the problem though if I did the burn to escape Earth with them both separately, then dock them once they are on their way to the other planet. But I still need to rendezvous first.

 

[Sherrif of Nottingham]

This sounds interesting... somehow reminds me of Apollo missions with the CM and the LM. Its quite hard doing manuvers with it docked nose to nose, but if it were done with different vehicles "payload" style, then it might be easier. Other wise I'd say crack the Dragonfly Code open.

 

[TSPenguin]

Yea I was kind of worried about that as well.
I thought I might be able to get around the problem though if I did the burn to escape Earth with them both separately, then dock them once they are on their way to the other planet. But I still need to rendezvous first.

That means you'd need to burn at exactly the same time...
I don't know if IMFD or btc do burn when not in focus. Does anyone know this?

 

[HiPotOk1978]

That means you'd need to burn at exactly the same time...
I don't know if IMFD or btc do burn when not in focus. Does anyone know this?

It does not, BUT. do a few practice burns so you can adjust the engine gimbals of the ship with the biggest engines for forward thrust, you could always use remote ship control to fire the retro engines and fire RCS to help assist turns, stabalizing, ejections....

One trick I have learned to do to make my life easier is once I got my heading down and I am waiting on the burn, and I know that my gimbals are good is activate the killrot via ship remote control. During alignment, i just remember to reverse the logic on the controls, eg up is down, roll left is roll right etc. Another option is to use say the Vanguard XR5 w/ universal cargo deck.... and strap your second ship to the lower hull... the weight should not be a problem, and the clearing is not going to be as well... I have parked all 3 DG's.... the IV, OG and XR under the massive clearance of the vanguard, well not at the same time...

Quick Edit:

I successfully launched 2x original DG's from the shuttle stack... one DG doesn't have enough main thrust even with the SRB's from the shuttle to send that HUGE ET into orbit.... first attempts with one was the SRB would get me up, then I would start falling back down after about 4k altitude

 

[pandadude]

All this is hurting my head!
Maybe I need to ask a new question:
Can anybody suggest to me some ways (preferably as simple as possible) to get the DG-IV to Mars or beyond, without having to change its fuel and oxygen settings (as in leaving the settings at 15 days oxygen for 5 astronauts, enough fuel to reach the Moon on its own but no more). I know I can change it so it has years worth of oxygen, but where's the fun in that? I want to pretend it is semi-realistic and that I need a bigger mothership for the crusing stage of the journey.
There's still the problem of me not knowing IMFD inside out, but that can be learnt and HiPotOK has given me a link to a (hopefully) good IMFD tutorial. I can learn IMFD, but I still can't picture a method of getting the DGIV with those settings to another planet.
No doubt I'll just end up cheating and changing the settings once it all gets too complicated.
As always, thanks for all the helpful posts so far. If nothing else, I can try and learn what has alreayd been said. Trying to use code from the Dragonfly sounds daunting though!

 

[HiPotOk1978]

All this is hurting my head!
Maybe I need to ask a new question:
Can anybody suggest to me some ways (preferably as simple as possible) to get the DG-IV to Mars or beyond, without having to change its fuel and oxygen settings (as in leaving the settings at 15 days oxygen for 5 astronauts, enough fuel to reach the Moon on its own but no more). I know I can change it so it has years worth of oxygen, but where's the fun in that? I want to pretend it is semi-realistic and that I need a bigger mothership for the crusing stage of the journey.
There's still the problem of me not knowing IMFD inside out, but that can be learnt and HiPotOK has given me a link to a (hopefully) good IMFD tutorial. I can learn IMFD, but I still can't picture a method of getting the DGIV with those settings to another planet.
No doubt I'll just end up cheating and changing the settings once it all gets too complicated.
As always, thanks for all the helpful posts so far. If nothing else, I can try and learn what has alreayd been said. Trying to use code from the Dragonfly sounds daunting though!

I mentioned this in another post, when your adding range to Dan's DGIV, your not really adding fuel the absolute only complaint that I have about the craft. For realism, sending 5 dudes to Mars in that craft.... I have thought about it after looking inside and I figured that maybe.... MAYBE 2 people could do it comfortable... Now as far as a more REAL launch, what I do is use the 5 drop tank DG setup that sputnik's Velcro Rockets has... it adds 9000kg more fuel, AND ofc, the weight of the fuel AND the tanks... I use that 9k of fuel to get into orbit, which leaves me 9600kg for my burn to get there and a bit of aero breaking and burning once I get to Mars... I haven't figured out how to do the O2 thing where if you make a mistake since everyone codes in their own life support stuff and it is not part of the sim, but the ships, so what I do is onces I do my burn to Mars, I open up my cargobay, eject a 02 container from dan's site (random containers that people make, like the antigrav one etc) dock that to the nose, and then go down to lower panel to recharge the tank. I figure from reading the container, that it would provide enough O2 for 2 guys all the way to Mars. Your also gonna have to deal with about 2000kg of extra weight on liftoff and course correction burns your nose is going to be that much heavy... Not to mention it adds a bit of a Apollo feel to a Mars mission. If you never have played with Velcro Rockets, it is cool... Lots of rockets and modifications of real rockets from the past and the ability to stick anything you can think of as payload and blast it into orbit.... the Saturn rockets are my fav and what i used to send my probe to Venus.

PS. The 3000kg centre line tank (ha just spelled center wrong) covers the front hover engine, so don't think about using hover engines... and the default autopilot for runway launch will not deal with pitch properly due to the extra weight... Be warned the DGIV flys more like a Vanguard with that extra fuel. If you want an auto pilot launch, I designed one that well... it does the job, but not very cleanly... but will get u into orbit. I have learned to fly the big fat gas can w/o so I never reworked it with the new numbers I use when doing manual flight

 

[pandadude]

I mentioned this in another post, when your adding range to Dan's DGIV, your not really adding fuel the absolute only complaint that I have about the craft. For realism, sending 5 dudes to Mars in that craft.... I have thought about it after looking inside and I figured that maybe.... MAYBE 2 people could do it comfortable... Now as far as a more REAL launch, what I do is use the 5 drop tank DG setup that sputnik's Velcro Rockets has... it adds 9000kg more fuel, AND ofc, the weight of the fuel AND the tanks... I use that 9k of fuel to get into orbit, which leaves me 9600kg for my burn to get there and a bit of aero breaking and burning once I get to Mars... I haven't figured out how to do the O2 thing where if you make a mistake since everyone codes in their own life support stuff and it is not part of the sim, but the ships, so what I do is onces I do my burn to Mars, I open up my cargobay, eject a 02 container from dan's site (random containers that people make, like the antigrav one etc) dock that to the nose, and then go down to lower panel to recharge the tank. I figure from reading the container, that it would provide enough O2 for 2 guys all the way to Mars. Your also gonna have to deal with about 2000kg of extra weight on liftoff and course correction burns your nose is going to be that much heavy... Not to mention it adds a bit of a Apollo feel to a Mars mission. If you never have played with Velcro Rockets, it is cool... Lots of rockets and modifications of real rockets from the past and the ability to stick anything you can think of as payload and blast it into orbit.... the Saturn rockets are my fav and what i used to send my probe to Venus.

PS. The 3000kg centre line tank (ha just spelled center wrong) covers the front hover engine, so don't think about using hover engines... and the default autopilot for runway launch will not deal with pitch properly due to the extra weight... Be warned the DGIV flys more like a Vanguard with that extra fuel. If you want an auto pilot launch, I designed one that well... it does the job, but not very cleanly... but will get u into orbit. I have learned to fly the big fat gas can w/o so I never reworked it with the new numbers I use when doing manual flight

Thanks so much for that advice. I especially like your idea of the external O2 tank stored in the cargo bay until we are on the way to mars. I have never even looked at the velcro rockets before, so I will have to investigate them for the added fuel. I don't really need THAT much more fuel. There should be around 35% fuel left once in orbit anyway and that would probably be about enough to reach Mars. But it would be nice to have a little more left over just to be safe.


-----Posted Added-----


You wouldn't happen to have a link to an )2 tank which can be stored in the payload bay, would you?
I can't find it on Dan's site or Orbit Hangar

 

[HiPotOk1978]

You wouldn't happen to have a link to an )2 tank which can be stored in the payload bay, would you?
I can't find it on Dan's site or Orbit Hangar

This add-on contains four new standard cargo containers for the transport of generic supplies.

G-He3: Helium-3
G-N2: Nitrogen
G-O2: Oxygen
L-H20: Water
Author: SirBruce

http://orbiter.dansteph.com/index.php?disp=dgIVMore&files=106_DGIVCargoGenericPack.zip

Don't forget you have it on your nose after that long trip to Mars... Might wanna jettison it, or even better add the challenge of sticking it back in your cargo bay w/o EVA... If you keep it, you can always sell it to someone going back to Earth or hold onto it for your return journey

If you want that Auto Pilot, here it is. Just copy and paste this text into a txt file named PRO902SPEC.txt and place it in your \Sound\deltagliderIV then you can call it just like any other AP

// -----------------------------------------------
// ASCENT PROGRAM PRO902 FROM EARTH
// ENGAGE FROM GROUND OR IN FLIGHT (<1000m)
// -----------------------------------------------
; Program 902 is a variation of the standard 903 that is included with the Delta Glider IV. This Program can be useful
; for when your using Sputnik's Velcro Rocket Drop tanks. These tanks weight approx 10,000kg when full and provide an
; extra 9000kg of fuel. This auto pilot was designed also with 3000kg of cargo in your cargo bay and you must have the
; Mark IV engines at least on your bird to even think about taking off. HiPotOk does not guarantee a sucessful launch
; from any other heading than 90 degrees. Your results may vary.
; Warning: The further you start off from the SPEC heading you enter, the more fuel your burn, and the heading allignment
; is scarry due to the computer not pitching enough and having to level out craft to gain altitude.
PROGNAME: EARTH ~214km Velcro Tanks
TYPE: ASCENT
START: INFLIGHT
DISPLAYDEBUG: 0 ;Display some debug information to help tune an autopilot. (0=off 1=on)
ALT: 0 ENG: 1 ;Engine full
ALT: 15 SNMSG: #RaiseLandingGear
ALT: 20 PITCH: 20 ;Take-off pitch
ALT: 800 ENG: 1.1 ;Turbo Pump active, boy this thing weights alot
ALT: 850 PITCH: 20 ;climb steady while making turn
ALT: 1500 PITCH: 25
ALT: 1700 PITCH: 25
ALT: 1800 PITCH: 70
ALT: 40000 PITCH: 70
ALT: 45000 PITCH: 70
ALT: 50000 PITCH: 74
ALT: 66000 PITCH: 76
ALT: 80000 PITCH: 52
ALT: 100000 PITCH: 49
ALT: 130000 PITCH: 43
ALT: 150000 PITCH: 42
ALT: 160000 PITCH: 32
ALT: 175000 PITCH: 23
ALT: 190000 PITCH: 18
ALT: 200000 PITCH: 15
ALT: 205000 PITCH: 12
ALT: 210000 PITCH: 10
ALT: 212000 PITCH: 09
ALT: 212500 PITCH: 08
ALT: 214000 PITCH: 07
ALT: 400000 PITCH: 0
ENDPROG:

Here is another option, a specially modified Vanguard for Delta Glider Transport... using the Universal Cargo Deck

 

[Master of Blades]

You could always launch them with the TX Winged Space Launcher, aight?

 

[HiPotOk1978]

You could always launch them with the TX Winged Space Launcher, aight?

can u launch two vehicles at the same time that way?

 

[Master of Blades]

It uses the same payload system as the Energia, and the Universal Cargo Deck... So theoretically, yes it's possible... Not sure how it would work out with all the physics and mass and such though... But completely possible in Orbiter

 

[pandadude]

I've tried the TX briefly before- isn't it meant to just lift you to a high altitude? I didn't think it was meant for travelling large distances.

And HiPotOk, thanks so much for that link and your autopilot - I think I will try your method first and see how it goes.

 

[HiPotOk1978]

I've tried the TX briefly before- isn't it meant to just lift you to a high altitude? I didn't think it was meant for travelling large distances.

And HiPotOk, thanks so much for that link and your autopilot - I think I will try your method first and see how it goes.

TX only has air breathing engines I think, why I would do the vanguard. I don't see any reason a vanguard wouldn't be able to be modified in such a was as to lift 2 DG's or any other type of craft with some sort of aerodynamic shape into LEO. Maybe someone with an aeronautical degree could tell me if that idea I have is flawed

 

[Cobalt]

Here is another option, a specially modified Vanguard for Delta Glider Transport... using the Universal Cargo Deck

Heh, I tried that for fun the other night, and the DGIV's gear broke off. Whoops!

I probably did something wrong, though.