World of 2001

sputnik

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I'll start with a problem: it has to do with the bomb payloads. Early on, Alain (80mileshigh) and I had to make some assumptions as to who owned the various bomb payloads we see at the beginning of the "modern" portion of the movie. After all, we needed to haul these bombs up on a vehicle with the appropriate paint job, right?

Some of these, we guessed correctly. Others, not so much. Those darn DVD editions have made it possible to see flags where Alain and I, with our VHS copies, couldn't.

You can see some discussion of the issue on the whimsically named "Orbital Defense Engineering Commission" forum: http://odec.proboards83.com/
And specifically, the summary here: http://odec.proboards83.com/index.cgi?board=reference&action=display&thread=9

Fr'instance, it appears what we assigned as the Soviet satellite actually has a small French roundel on it.
What we have as the British bomb is apparently supposed to be the Soviet one.

If, and only if, we go by the conclusions of these guys. (But they have evidence in the form of the French roundel).

So, is it worth changing these around for v3.2? This will cause confusion among Orbiteers, but will add a little realism. What does everyone think?
 

TSPenguin

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I vote for doing it now rather than later.
You guys did the best you could and you just fluked on some details.
If it isn't a hassle (i.e.: you're already doing something on those) why not make them accurate now...
 

sputnik

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Thanks, guys. Fast answers, too! We'll wait for more, but I think I see how it's going to go.

There's no chance there'll be a quick update. For one thing, we want to AVOID minor updates to what is after all a very large file.
For another, the changes actually affect quite a bit. File names (.cfg and .msh) are the least of it. Scenarios will have to be changed. And checked.
Satellites come in 3 sizes: full-bay (U.S. and German sats), 1/3 of a bay (Soviet satellite; will be French satellite, I guess), and half-bay (British sat and French sat, I guess to become Soviet sat and British sat). The half-bay ones come in two shapes; the (current) British one is wide and flat, so they get stacked on one another; the (current) French are long and thin and go side-by-side.
All of the payload positioning is going to have to be moved around. And the Orion III is a little smaller and less capable than the Titov V; I'll have to check to see if it can throw 3 of the 1/3-size sats into polar orbit from Brest. And if not, I'll have to tweak some values until it can.

You can't change one peanut.
Which is just as well, or we'd all be downloading Wo2001 v3.172314 right about now....
 

ar81

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To improve the experience, improving VCs could be great IMHO. If it could be done for the next update, it would be great.
 

Woo482

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how about changing the eva people they are a bit crap at the moment
 

Urwumpe

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how about changing the eva people they are a bit crap at the moment

What is "a bit crap"? :dry:

Can't you be a bit more specific? Also, remember that the astronauts look like that, because they are visually inspired by the movie 2001.
 

Woo482

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oh ok I have never seen the movie :)
 

streb2001

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oh ok I have never seen the movie :)

Then can I suggest that you do ASAP? A seminal sci-fi classic, anyone with an interest in space should see it. If only to wonder at what might have been... :mellow:

------------

Oh yes, Sputnik, any chance of updating the particle stream effects while you are at it? IMO the current ones look a bit bubbly and cartoonish. Sorry!

Still doesn't stop WO2001 being a complete masterpiece though.
 
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sputnik

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Criticism is fine...but what does everyone WANT from the particle effects? The idea was to show a bit of streaming, heat effect, and contrailing in the lower atmosphere, trailing off quickly as the vessel climbed.
I've had requests to take the particle streams out entirely, but I don't think this looks right.

So what does everyone WANT from the particle effects? Keeping in mind that this is a long way from being a solid-rocket motor.
 

Urwumpe

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Criticism is fine...but what does everyone WANT from the particle effects? The idea was to show a bit of streaming, heat effect, and contrailing in the lower atmosphere, trailing off quickly as the vessel climbed.
I've had requests to take the particle streams out entirely, but I don't think this looks right.

So what does everyone WANT from the particle effects? Keeping in mind that this is a long way from being a solid-rocket motor.

I personally think, a more transparent hairspray effect would be nicer as the large opaque clouds you have now.

Alternatively, you could also take them out - the RCS exhaust cloud of the shuttle is also not visible, if you see it from 500m distance, only the pretty large flames.
 

ar81

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I docked Orion to StationV after watching the movie again.
Docking in the movie seems to take place during daylight and in a very high orbit. Station seems to point rotation axis towards Earth and Orion approaches from below.

I think that such a scenario would be cool.
It also would require a VC to have the feeling you have in the movie, or at least a fake control panel.
 

streb2001

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I agree with Urwumpe. The docs state that the Orion propellant is LH2 and LO2, as you say far from solid rocket fuel. I wouldn't expect to see any vapour trail, maybe Urwumpe's "hairspray" at most. The type of exhaust stream on the DG EX might look good on the Orion...

I also agree with ditching the RCS exhaust particle stream in space on the Aries etc. It looks a bit twee and Flash Gordonesque (and it also murdered the framerate on my old graphics card. But not on my new one, oh no :))

ED: have you considered using Dan Steph's UMMU for EVA and crew management? Carrying a full passenger compliment to Station V, taking a "real" Floyd to Clavius etc etc. Now that would be fun!
 
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sputnik

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Okay, less particle effects all the way around, then.

Streb: actually, I >HAD< considered UMMU, but haven't fooled with the idea much for a few reasons:

1. I don't really understand UMMU: its advantages, how it works, etc.
2. As I understand it, you'd have to download the UMMU code somewhere else. Creating an add-on dependency for WO2k1. I'd REALLY like to avoid that.
3. As I understand it, I don't get to change the core EVA code. So the code I've made up for grappling things, strapping into things...doesn't work.
4. Also, it kills your HUD and adds some other instrumentation that I'm not sure I like for the World of 2001 setting.
5. You die if you use a Paracone. Or possibly other scenarios that I'd prefer to consider survivable.

Please understand, I'm not knocking UMMU; I think it's brilliant. I'm just not sure I can work it into what's already a very complex and interdependent add-on.
 

Chupacabra

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One of my favorite add-ons!

Let me try to answer a few of your questions:
1.UMMU is able to simulate the conditions of people in space. It allows you to move around easily on planets (I really liked your EVAs but walking around was more cumbersome than with UMMU), transfer ships, and is able to emulate life support. It allows for grappling stuff and also accepts different meshes for the UMMU.

2.I believe UMMU is a required add-on but it has gotten widespread use throughout several add-ons including the XR-series, the DGIV, and many more through UMMUFA (an attempt to bring UMMU to vessels similar to what Spacecraft3 has done for Robotic arms and easily configured vessels). On Dan's Orbiter Page UMMU+SDK has 17 964 hits. Not to mention the DGIV, which also contains the UMMU package, has 30 249 hits. I believe that many will have the add-on already, or will benefit from picking it up.

3.You are correct that the source code is closed. However, you may still grapple objects by pressing 'G' near the object. You can "ingress" into objects for strapping into things, look at what woo482 has done with his Marsrover as an example. You may define the recieving object to make visible the UMMU mesh after it has a person onboard. Also if you have tried using the satellite that came shipped with DGIV you will notice that you may use the UMMU to perform functions that affect another vessel.

4.While the HUD is gone, it would be highly unrealistic for that large screen to fit right infront of an astronauts face. I appreciate the conservative approach to include a small data console in the corner of the screen. It becomes very useful for many things but obviously it makes it more difficult to change your orbit significantly. However one is able to open an externalMFD if necessary...I've never found the use for it on a EVA though.

5.Again if you use the earlier described approach to 'ingress' a vehicle such as a paracone,(you get the HUD first fo all), thus you can define under what conditions the crew may die. It does seem like a cheat because you won't be able to grapple the paracone with your back like you can a turbopack but it works with little extra trouble.

Not to mention that by supporting UMMU you open your "World" of 2001 with the possiblity to use it in conjunction with other "Worlds". These may include DGs, Cars, or any other number of Vessels.

Of course in the end it is your decision. I'm only trying to answer some questions. Before you decide though you should look at the sample code included in the UMMU SDK. It is really simple to read and code by the looks of it. Maybe Doug can tell you of his experience incorporating UMMU into his vessels.

I hope that wasn't too long. I hope it helps! Thanks for all your great works!:)
 

Belisarius

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Hi Sputnik, a great addon and much credit to you and 80mileshigh.

1. Particle streams : I agree that a hairspray-like effect would be good. For the Aries and Gagarin I would like something more like a flame, like the DGIV.

2. VCs or fake interiors are a must. It's the only aspect of Wo2001 that is now behind the game. It would increase the "believability" of the world by enormous amounts.

3. With regard to the world itself and the scenarios I'd love to see a kind of pre-history taking the 2001 story back toward the 1970s and 1980s. How did they get from Apollo to Station V and Clavius?
 

sputnik

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Chupacabra,

Good summation, and exactly what I was looking for. Thanks!

I will take a good look at woo482's rover, which I have not seen.

I note in passing that, with the Wo2k1 EVA, you can already grapple things, strap into things (although only the Paracone actually does this), and enter/egress. What we CAN'T do is:
- Transfer from one vessel to another
- Display the mesh once onboard (though this would be easy to add now, to the Moonbus)
- Monitor vitals of the passengers (in which I have about zero interest, but I realize not everyone feels this way).

I also don't like losing the Docking HUD, which I use for just about everything.

I had been siffering from a bit of mental block, as I'd thought of the Paracone as a strap-into system (as it is for my EVA 'nauts). It hadn't occurred to me that treating it instead as an UMMU "vehicle" will get around the problem.

So, thanks. I'll look into it again.
 

Chupacabra

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No problem. Anything to Help.

woo482's rover is a nice and simple add-on that although it doesn't do so much intrinsically, it allows a lot of possibilities.

For example he developed an add-on that can be attached, move no faster than 10km/h while on the ground (and spins the wheels), and carries UMMU support. It doesn't even display the mesh, although completly possible.

What that allows however is a system to move UMMU's around a base quickly (something impossible alone because UMMU gets tired and moves at a top speed of about 5km/h), can be used to explore bases around the solar system. Can be a wonderful, and exciting, addition to Orulex+Meshland. It will notice if you hit the ground too hard (HARP is fun :) ). And finally Ejection seats (although they are fatal, ha, they only launch you 10m up :D ). You can also combine it with Cargo Deck/URMS to haul around cargo and other stuff on the ground.

As for vitals while in the spacecraft, I myself wouldn't worry too much. I would probably check vert. speed at ground contact and maybe check dynamic pressure to be no higher than "sea level" on Jupiter. And then move on. If you want you may implement your own Temperature gauging system but it might be overkill. :beach:

I personally find the DockingHUD to be limited but you have the same+more information in the provided HUD. Change display, depending on whether you are grounded or in orbit, to Surface/Orbit mode and select the target vessel. It will give you its orientation from you (pitch, heading), your distance, and your relative speed to it (in three axis). Besides, EVA isn't meant for rendevouz with another spacecraft in a different orbit. For that you use a ship. An EVA has limited fuel and oxygen.

Just play around with both the UMMU and the SDK so you can be familiar with it. It has a help function as part of the data hud.

Again try to contact dbeachy1. Maybe he can tell you what he has found working on the XR-series with UMMU.

I've been going through various websites, SDKs, and add-ons to get you the information in the previous posts. I'm tired :chair:
 
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Woo482

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One of my favorite add-ons!


3.You are correct that the source code is closed. However, you may still grapple objects by pressing 'G' near the object. You can "ingress" into objects for strapping into things, look at what woo482 has done with his Marsrover as an example. You may define the recieving object to make visible the UMMU mesh after it has a person onboard. Also if you have tried using the satellite that came shipped with DGIV you will notice that you may use the UMMU to perform functions that affect another vessel.



YAY Some one has used my work for an example

EDIT1: and if you did want to use ummu I think I can help you get it to work with your vessels
EDIT2: my work has been mentioned 3 times in this thread !
 
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