Wernher von Braun. Hero or Murderer?

lennartsmit

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The reason I start this thread because I'd like to know your opinion about von Braun. The problem I got with this man is because a family-member (husband of the sister of my grandma) of me has spent time in camp Dora in WW 2. Everytime I see a reference to von Braun as a hero of science I must think of the horrors my great/uncle must have faced there. I´ll give a bit of info about camp Dora.

Camp Mittelbau-Dora was a concentration-camp in the center of Germany. Most of you will know it from the place the V-2's were built. The factory in Mittelwerk used forced laborers from Dora and Mittelbau to built V-2's in an expansive tunnel-network. The tunnels were dark and workers often never saw the sun back once they entered. The unofficial motto of the camp was;''Enter via the tunnels, exit via the chimneys.''

This is a quote from Wikipedia about the conditions in Dora

Although most of the prisoners were men, a few women were held in the Dora Mittelbau camp and in the Groß Werther subcamp. Only one woman guard is now known to have served in Dora, Lagerführerin Erna Petermann. Regardless of sex, all prisoners were treated with extreme cruelty, which caused illness, injuries and deaths. Examples of the cruelty routinely inflicted on prisoners include: severe beatings that could permanently disable and/or disfigure the victims, deliberate and life-threatening starvation, physical and mental torture as well as summary execution under the smallest pretext.

My great-uncle got sent there after he was captured trying to flee to Switzerland. He fled because he was called up for hard labor by the German occupants of the Netherlands.

At the end of WW 2 von Braun surrendered to the Americans after which he was shipped to the US to work for the US army at the White Sands missile range.
There he helped testing V-2's and eventually he helped with the Apollo program.

Now, I also see the significance of this last part but still. Although he claimed he did not know anything about the horrors there are reports of members of the French resistance in 1995 that he personally ordered hangings.

My ultimate question is this:''Can his scientific career in the U.S. cleanse his actions for the Third Reich?

P.S. Please, only adult responses.

P.P.S. My great-uncle was freed from the camp after the Germans abandoned it when the Allied forces got too close in 1945. He passed away in 2007.
 

Mantis

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I guess it comes down to whether or not he was aware of what was going on and whether he was directly invovled in it. He certainly worked for some really vile people but I can't say that I know whether he was aware of the extent of their crimes or whether he had any direct involvement in them.
 

Keatah

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Could you clarify what you mean by an 'adult' response??
 

tblaxland

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Hero or murderer? Or: hero or villain? Who knows? All I can say for sure was that he was a man. He certainly did some good, and probably did some evil. All men do, to varying degrees. Whether he actually murdered people is unknown, untried in court, and trial-by-internet-forum is unlikely to reveal the truth. I'm not about to pass judgement on any man without the facts of the case and due process.

EDIT: Perhaps that sounds callous. Do not misunderstand me, you and your family have my sympathies for any horrors of war that they may have experienced.

Could you clarify what you mean by an 'adult' response??
Some ideas that come to mind: "adult" == "mature", "thoughtful", etc.
 
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surveyor53

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I grew up in the south (USA) and was taught to read at the age of 1-2 years. I became an avid reader, and read the entire Oxford Law Dictionary at the age of 3, in 1956. I read it cover to cover several times. I then attacked the Encyclopaedia Brittanica and read all volumes 2 or 3 times. At age 6, 1959, I wrote Dr. Von Braun a letter explaining that I wanted to be an astronaut. He quickly wrote me back, a full legal sized sheet of unlined paper, very perfect handwriting. He told me to persevere in my studies and that I would succeed in my wishes. On the right hand margin of the letter he drew a beautiful picture of what he referred to as "my moon rocket" that looks just about exactly like the Saturn 5. I cherish this letter as a family heirloom, and am fully aware of the monster that he was during the second world war. He was quite nice to answer a 6 year old's letter, though.
 

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I think Von Braun would have despised what was going on, but of course had little power to stop it.
 

Wolfer

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I don't think we can say that "his engineering career in the U.S. cleansed his actions for the Third Reich", because that would imply he had done somethings quite evil. As far as I know, he had just let them happen (he didn't had much of a choice anyway). von Braun was an opportunist who saw the Nazi military as a way to get funding for his rockets. When he later became aware of the concentration camp and the slave labor at Dora, he had no power to stop it. He would probably have been killed had he tried. When he went over to the Americans it was, first, to evade capture by the red army and, more importantly, to again get funding for his research.

A bit off topic: I always wondered why most people are always ready to question von Braun's moral integrity, but never that of the allied generals who ordered the strategic bombing of German cities.
 

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I think Von Braun would have despised what was going on, but of course had little power to stop it.

How could we say he despised it? All we know is that when the final days of the war in Europe had come and everything was falling apart, he made his way specifically to American lines and surrendered. Then he spent his time in the states continuing what he started doing back in the 1920's, designing big rockets to go to the Moon, Mars, and wherever his dreams lead him. And during the war it could be conjectured that he did try to cuddle up with the Nazis to get his rockets built. Basically I can say two things about him.

1. He really did believe in people going to space and living there.
2. He took what opportunities he could get to further his belief becoming reality.

Note that the second one isn't strictly referring to designing and building V2s. He did maneuver things to get Explorer 1 out into orbit on his rocket, and by maneuver I mean prove that he could do it to the right people and more importantly prove he could do it soon, as Explorer 1 was as hot on the heels of Sputnik 1 as anyone could make it.

What I think is that he was man with big dreams and did all he could to realize those big dreams and inspire others to realize them. That he chose to offer those skills to whoever could offer the most to him seriously stains the nobleness of his goal. In other words, he is no hero to me.

---------- Post added at 03:22 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:01 AM ----------

A bit off topic: I always wondered why most people are always ready to question von Braun's moral integrity, but never that of the allied generals who ordered the strategic bombing of German cities.

[Rant]
Your talking about the same bunch who ordered that men would continue to fight in the winter of 1944-1945 that was one of the coldest on record. The same idiots that demanded more men for their divisions, insisting that training be sped up, despite the fact that caused the new guys to suffer huge casualties that could have been avoided if they had been better trained. The same asses that kept winter clothing back in depots in the fall of 1944, betting that the Nazis would fall before Christmas!

They were dumb, ignorant and only cared who would get to raise their countrys flag over Berlin! [/Rant]

Answering you more directly, the allied generals bombed what they could because they could, and the only reason the did so was because it was thought it could help end the war and they didn't have a clue what destruction they were causing. Read about the Hurtgen Forest and you'll come to the conclusion that if they didn't even know what they were doing to their own men, what could they know what they were doing to civilians.
 
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IgnoreThisBarrel

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Ah, I don't really know what he thought. I'm just saying most sane people would have found something like concentration camps to be horrible, to say the least.
 

jinglesassy

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I cherish this letter as a family heirloom, and am fully aware of the monster that he was during the second world war. He was quite nice to answer a 6 year old's letter, though.

Could you post a picture of it? I would love to see it.

On topic: He was an opportunist that went to the nearest place for funding for his rocketry which was the German army.They told him to put explosives on the tips of the rocket or they would cut funding. He didn't have a choice or he would of been executed and when the Nazi empire was falling he decided to surrender to the United States instead of the Soviet Union. So i do not see him as a villain/murderer/whatever you want to call it i see him as the designer of the most powerful successful rocket ever built nothing more nothing less.
 

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I don't think we can say that "his engineering career in the U.S. cleansed his actions for the Third Reich", because that would imply he had done somethings quite evil. As far as I know, he had just let them happen (he didn't had much of a choice anyway). von Braun was an opportunist who saw the Nazi military as a way to get funding for his rockets. When he later became aware of the concentration camp and the slave labor at Dora, he had no power to stop it. He would probably have been killed had he tried. When he went over to the Americans it was, first, to evade capture by the red army and, more importantly, to again get funding for his research.

A bit off topic: I always wondered why most people are always ready to question von Braun's moral integrity, but never that of the allied generals who ordered the strategic bombing of German cities.
WWII was terrible. Another question should be Who would be heartless enough to bomb cities that they know to be full of citizens?
Back on topic now (unless we're derailing this thread to a general WWII thread) Why are you targeting von Braun? What of the other Nazi scientists that were captured and helped during the space race on both sides? As said in The Right Stuff "Our Germans are better than there Germans."

Darren
 

Urwumpe

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Why not both? Hero and Murderer. I think it is a bit easy to expect a clear difference for any hero in history. Especially during war or inside a fascist regime.

The decision to go to Dora Mittelbau or to use slave labor wasn't von Brauns, he could only have refused by committing indirect suicide.

Also, you can't cleanse your past of your errors. Never. You can either live with them or die with them.
 
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Notebook

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From what I've read it was a mad scramble at the end of WWII to get the best scientists for each "side" out of Germany. Of course we were all allies then...

If the Russians had got Van Braun, I wonder where that would have left Korolyov?

To Pyromaniac605 #11 above:
To answer your question
Who would be heartless enough to bomb cities that they know to be full of citizens?
Here's one who had no apologies for just that:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_Arthur_Harris,_1st_Baronet

From what I've read of Von Braun. he seems to have been a charasmatic charmer, not to mention a brilliant engineer and organiser. He probably had his own syytem of morals

N.
 

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T.Neo

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The area bombing of German cities was terrible, but so was the bombing of British cities, and so was just about everything else in the war. Because, well, it was a war. War is not a "nice" thing.

Back on topic, regarding Mr Von Braun; if you were a brilliant scientist and/or engineer with a dream, would you work for a horrible, ruthless government to realise that dream?

Think about it.
 

garyw

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Ah, I don't really know what he thought. I'm just saying most sane people would have found something like concentration camps to be horrible, to say the least.

Remember that most of the Germans didn't KNOW about the concentration camps. It wasn't like it was broadcast on German news!

When the allies liberated some of the camps and the German people about what they found many refused to believe it.

As for Von Braun, He had little choice about joining the Nazi party. As someone mad keen on rockets he had to join in order to carry out his research.

Where Von Braun failed was allowing the continued usage of slave labour to build his V-2 but I believe that at this point he really felt he was in a corner and didn't want to say anything for fear of being shot as a traitor by his own people.
 

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Remember that most of the Germans didn't KNOW about the concentration camps. It wasn't like it was broadcast on German news!

Also, you have to remember that it is just a small step from prison camps and forced labor camps to concentration camps.

How many people inside the USA subjected against forming concentration camps for people of Japanese ethnic during WW2? It happened much more publicly than the German holocaust, but still nobody protested.

It maybe created an uneasy feeling among the silent majority, but that is always hidden behind the loud minority that puts itself on the peak of the wave of hatred that is quickly created. You might not believe it, but any population could be turned into the same death camp politics, some Orbiter-Forum members might even happily take the lead in such a situation, using hatred for gaining power and thus increasing the hatred for more power. The path to the dark side. Then you just need enough people who are not supporting such extreme measures, but are too timid to protest. And just enough protesters, that you can intern some of their leaders easily, and silence the others by claiming they are unpatriotic, and on the edge of being enemies of their own homeland. It is really simple.

It takes a lot of effort to ensure all play nice and don't turn into a mob of mass murderers every other year.
 

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What about Gerald Bull? What was he thinking when he went to work for Saddam Hussein? You expect that just because someone is a great engineer or a brilliant organizer to have the ability to know which employer is going to try to fit working people to death into your rocket building plans? I think that love him or hate him, Von Braun is a man who did what he could to realize his dreams. Even if he is responsible for Apollo's Saturn, he still was willing to do anything to get his rockets built.

To Notebook wondering about what would happen to Korolev if the Russians got Von Braun: I've read that the Soviets kept the captured Germans away from their own scientists so no one could accuse them of having relied upon them to get into space. Plus you have to compare the rocket each man built: Korolev made the Soyuz and Von Braun the Saturn(granted this is only one famous rocket per guy). Which is had more of a impact?
 

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Like Groettrup von Braun would have been sent away to Germany after a while... to be picked by the Americans who would have already nurtured own rocket designers, so von Braun would not have the influence he had in real history, and he would probably have to struggle for survival of his team till his death.
 

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Like Groettrup von Braun would have been sent away to Germany after a while... to be picked by the Americans who would have already nurtured own rocket designers, so von Braun would not have the influence he had in real history, and he would probably have to struggle for survival of his team till his death.

The USA had already their own skilled rocket designers, and also other immigrants, like for example the designer of the Atlas rocket, who was from Belgium.

The ABMA had been a very small agency in the USA, but it was one of the most prolific. Why? First of all, von Braun had a very good management of his team, relying more on aggressive evolution from the V-2, than revolution. Also, von Braun had always been more a political animal, than an actual designer - he organized chances for his team to excel.

No US engineer did ever consider doing a pact with Disney and create long advertisements for spaceflight. At a time, when the ABMA was still fighting for being more than a asylum for German engineers, Von Braun was in the living rooms, and already a legendary figure for the normal US citizen.

Von Braun understood the rules quicker than others. Regardless if it had been the rules in the Weimar republic, Nazi Germany or the USA. Couple that with a lot of charisma and a thrust-worthy, rather moderated appearance. You can say that for generations of US citizens, the phenotype of the rocket scientist was somebody like von Braun. Because he was, eventually, more American than the original American engineers.

Von Braun was sure one influence for engineer characters like Scotty: When von Braun promised that he could build a satellite launcher in 90 days, he meant it dead seriously. And would maybe have had some days spare for optimizing the rocket.
 
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