# ProjectMultistage 2015 Apollo Saturn Launchers for AAPO

#### 1987VCRProductions

##### Well-known member
Hey, I'm currently working on making Multistage 2015 Saturn rockets for use with AAPO. I've already made a functioning Saturn IB and a Saturn V. Development is still ongoing and I might post it to Orbit Hangar if enough people are interested.

---------- Post added at 10:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:48 PM ----------

I might also include launch scenarios for Skylab and Skylab B along with scenarios for Apollo launches.

Quick question, I used the meshes from NASSP's Saturn IB and Saturn V. Do I need permission to use them or can I just say that NASSP is required for this add on to work?

#### Loru

##### Retired Staff Member
Retired Staff
Donator
Quick question, I used the meshes from NASSP's Saturn IB and Saturn V. Do I need permission to use them or can I just say that NASSP is required for this add on to work?

Check in NASSP docs. Authors sometimes may prohibit rights to use of their meshes even if you're not including them in your add-on.

---------- Post added at 12:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:31 AM ----------

You also may contact NASSP developers for clarification.

#### boogabooga

##### Bug Crusher
What about using from Velcro Saturns?

#### 1987VCRProductions

##### Well-known member
I picked NASSP because the S-II/S-IVB interstage is permanently attached to the top of the S-II. Also, the Saturn IB has the correct dimensions and looks better than the Velcro IB. The mesh for the NASSP Saturn V appears to be identical to the one used by usonian in their Skylab1973 add on.

---------- Post added at 01:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:19 AM ----------

I'll check the NASSP docs.

---------- Post added at 01:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:21 AM ----------

This is directly from the NASSP readme (the pre-NASSP 7 version):

Code:
License:
This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify it
Free Software Foundation; either version 2 of the License, or (at your
option) any later version.

This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, but
WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of
MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.

See http://nassp.sourceforge.net/license/ for more details.

It appears that I'm good but I'll shoot the developers an email for clarification next time I get the chance.

#### Hlynkacg

##### Aspiring rocket scientist
Tutorial Publisher
Donator
As I recall I included meshes and a config file for using Velcro to launch the CM and LM in the AAPO zip file

#### Face

##### Well-known member
Orbiter Contributor
Beta Tester
It appears that I'm good but I'll shoot the developers an email for clarification next time I get the chance.

A mere prerequisites note to GPL'ed addons is no problem at all IMHO. If you include parts of it in the distribution, though, I think you have to license your addon under a GPL-compatible license, too. Then again, if the author himself is fine with it, who cares? :shrug:

#### 1987VCRProductions

##### Well-known member
As I recall I included meshes and a config file for using Velcro to launch the CM and LM in the AAPO zip file

I know. I didn't use it because the upper interstage that connects the S-IVB to the S-II is its own separate mesh. In Multistage2015, I can't permanently attach it to the top of the S-II.

---------- Post added at 08:39 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:22 AM ----------

I don't really know what to do when it comes to licenses and that sort of thing. I don't know much about that sort of thing.

#### Face

##### Well-known member
Orbiter Contributor
Beta Tester
I don't really know what to do when it comes to licenses and that sort of thing. I don't know much about that sort of thing.

Asking the author (of the work you want to use) for permission is a good start.

#### K_Jameson

##### New member
Why not ask to AMSO developers the use of their Saturn meshes and textures? I find those better than NASSP or Velcro.

#### fred18

Donator
Why not ask to AMSO developers the use of their Saturn meshes and textures? I find those better than NASSP or Velcro.

The AMSO meshes are encrypted, thay cannot be used outside AMSO sceneries and addons, you will see a bunch of nonsense meshes if you try to use them, therefore i think this path won't be an easy one to follow since probably AMSO developers won't be fine with the usage of their meshes (otherwise why encrypt them?) and they should decrypt them to let other users use them.

I think that the option is to use the NASSP meshes, which are fine, ask the NASSP for permission of redestributing the meshes and in case of NO or No answer just put nassp as a prerequisite addon. This last option doesn't brake any rule at all in any case IMHO.

#### Face

##### Well-known member
Orbiter Contributor
Beta Tester
This last option doesn't brake any rule at all in any case IMHO.

With standard "all rights reserved" it might, because usage of a mesh with another addon is not immediately allowed (otherwise encrypted meshes would be nonsense, right?). Luckily NASSP is GPL.

#### 4throck

##### Enthusiast !
Keep it simple. List the original add-on as required, and DON'T redistribute meshes.
Remember that you are doing a public release of an add-on.

Write some docs, explain why you are using the meshes and put your email on it so that people can complaint. If someone do complaints, be civil and fix the problem. Be prepared to remove the add-on or find alternate meshes if needed.

#### 1987VCRProductions

##### Well-known member
I won't redistribute the meshes, I'll just list the required add ons in the readme. For the Apollo launch scenarios, AMSO will be required for the launch tower. I might also try to include the landing sites from AMSO in the scenarios that simulate landing missions.

NASSP 6.4.3 will be required for the Saturn rocket models. Skylab1973 v2.1 and Skylab B pack will also be required for those launch scenarios that I've created.

Kev Shanow's 1B Milkstand for NASSP 6.4.2 will be required for Saturn IB launches from LC-39. This should be installed before you install Skylab B pack because in that pack there's a fix for an error in that original Milkstand add on.

And, of course, Multistage2015 will be required.

---------- Post added at 08:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:53 PM ----------

Funny about the AMSO meshes, I did actually try to use them.

I call it, the flying garbage dump.

---------- Post added 11-02-15 at 05:49 AM ---------- Previous post was 11-01-15 at 08:07 PM ----------

I've perfected the Saturn V first stage pitch program. The Saturn V first stage followed a dummy launch profile, similar to the original guidance files for Multistage2 add ons. Starting at 13 seconds GET, the Saturn V rolled to the proper heading and pitched over at a set rate until it was at a certain flight angle just before staging. After the tower was jettisoned, the smart auto pilot would take over and steer the rocket towards the proper orbit. That is simulated here.

I've simulated the ullage motors on the Saturn V interstage ring and the S-IVB on both the Saturn V and the Saturn IB. The NASSP 6 Saturn V interstage ring has eight ullage motors on it. Only Apollo 4 and Apollo 6 had all eight ullage motors on the interstage ring. The number of motors was reduced to four for Apollo 8 and eliminated entirely starting with Apollo 15, that is simulated here (the interstage ring mesh will be the same in all the Saturn V scenarios but only the correct number of motors will fire).

Starting with Apollo 9, the F-1 engines were uprated from 1.5 million lbf each to 1.522 million lbf each. The S-IC burn time was also increased from about 2 minutes and 30 seconds to about 2 minutes and 40 seconds, this is simulated here.

Starting with Apollo 10, the center engine of the S-II was shut down at 7 minutes and 40 seconds GET. This, I believe, was in an attempt to fix an issue that plagued the S-II throughout its entire career, POGO oscillations. When the tanks in the S-II would reach a certain level, the vibrations of the engines would cause the stage to resonate and POGO would occur. The center engine shutting down early was (as I understand it) to cut down these vibrations and hopefully keep the S-II structure from resonating. The POGO issue would rear its ugly head again on Apollo 13, causing the center engine to oscillate so badly that it gulped a big bubble of gas and forced the IU to shut it down 2 minutes early. This will be simulated.

Next on my to-do list:
Mach effects
LOX venting effects
Historically accurate Saturn IB first stage guidance profile.

---------- Post added at 05:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:49 AM ----------

Also, each launch will have its own countdown audio.

#### 1987VCRProductions

##### Well-known member
Finished adding Mach effects to the Saturn V.

---------- Post added at 08:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:44 PM ----------

---------- Post added at 09:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:53 PM ----------

I found a Saturn V Payload Planners Guide from circa 1965 that mentioned (and illustrated) the possibility of sticking a Centaur on top of the S-IVB of both the Saturn V and the Saturn IB. It also mentioned that the Saturn V by itself could put upwards of 28,000 kg in a 0 degree inclination geostationary orbit.

The Saturn IB/Centaur could send 5,590 kg on a translunar trajectory or put 22,000 kg in low earth orbit. It allegedly had a similar capacity to the Titan IIIE, of Voyager and Viking fame. I haven't been able to find much on the Saturn V/Centaur though.

I would love to simulate all this but I'm not good when it comes to figuring out what payloads I can send where with what launch vehicles that I have.

---------- Post added 11-04-15 at 03:36 AM ---------- Previous post was 11-03-15 at 09:10 PM ----------

I've finished LOX venting effects for the Saturn V.

I also changed the launch pad to one of Kev Shanow's launch pads, the one used in this add on: [ame="http://www.orbithangar.com/searchid.php?ID=1373"]Apollo 17 Night Launch[/ame]

I'm going to work on the Saturn IB Mach and Venting effects next.

---------- Post added at 04:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:36 AM ----------

Any hints of where the LOX vents were on the Saturn IB? I can't find any pictures that show the Saturn IB venting, unlike the Saturn V where I've found plenty of pictures and films of it venting.

---------- Post added at 04:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:55 AM ----------

Never mind, I found some detailed technical drawings of the LOX vents on the S-IB.

---------- Post added at 05:27 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:58 AM ----------

Finished both LOX venting and Mach 1 effects for the Saturn IB.

I'm now going to focus on tweaking my Saturn IB guidance programs and then I'll spend the rest of the time cooking up some juicy scenarios.

#### 1987VCRProductions

##### Well-known member

Experimenting with a Centaur D upper stage. Effortlessly sent an OrbiComm satellite to Mars, only the S-IVB was required for the TMI burn. Could easily handle a heavier payload or could easily send the OrbiComm to a more distant or harder to reach planet.

Edit:
That was a test done with a Saturn V/Centaur D combination.

#### fred18

Donator
This project looks really nice!!! :thumbup:

#### 1987VCRProductions

##### Well-known member
Can a Saturn V/Centaur lob a 3,000kg probe out to Saturn from launch to closest approach in a little over 2 years?

You bet it can!

#### 1987VCRProductions

##### Well-known member
I've picked up work again. I'm creating scenarios for Apollo 10-14 and refining scenarios that I've already created. I'm also trying to create scenarios for the studied but never developed Saturn-Centaurs.

#### 1987VCRProductions

##### Well-known member
With attaching the AAPO CSM to a Multistage Saturn, the AAPO LES no longer functions correctly. I've removed it and replaced it with a Multistage2015 equivalent. You no longer have to switch to the spacecraft to manually jettison the LES, it goes away on its own now.

I've also been dabbling with launching Space Shuttle era payloads with the Saturn IB-Centaur. With power that rivals that of a Titan IIIE or a Titan IV, I had no difficulty launching the Hubble Space Telescope. I used BrianJ's HST_Ex.