Limitations in Germany

Lunar_Lander

New member
Joined
Oct 21, 2007
Messages
356
Reaction score
2
Points
0
Location
Osnabrück
I had been interested in model rocketry for some time and once I bought myself a little booklet about that topic. After reading it I have to say that all you must be really disappointed if you come to Germany to fly your rockets.

They do not allow any motors bigger than D, no multi-stage rockets and some other restrictions. To fly these bigger models, you need a T2 license which is handled under the Explosives Law. Applying for the license is expensive and requires to attend a special training course.

I think these restrictions are quite sad (this was also expressed by the author of the booklet) for anybody who would like to go for high-power rockets. What do you think about these regulations here?

And a second question: I've seen some models with a payload chamber. Did you fly one of them and what was your payload? Can you do real scientific research with a model rocket?
 

TSPenguin

The Seeker
Joined
Jan 27, 2008
Messages
4,075
Reaction score
4
Points
63
Since you have a booklet handy, could you confirm some afaik from me?

-You can only launch in certain places (clubs)
-You need a permit from airtraffic control to launch higher than 300m

Thanks.
 

Lunar_Lander

New member
Joined
Oct 21, 2007
Messages
356
Reaction score
2
Points
0
Location
Osnabrück
As stated in my first post, you need that Explosives license. All the motors are designated as explosives and therefore the strict restrictions and the D limitation. (The booklet said that in the USA, the motors are designated as Toys or something like that)
 

Urwumpe

Not funny anymore
Addon Developer
Donator
Joined
Feb 6, 2008
Messages
37,588
Reaction score
2,312
Points
203
Location
Wolfsburg
Preferred Pronouns
Sire
What is the reason for the limitation on motor size?

The reason is politically very simple. A famous engineer, who did not give a damn about safety, killed one spectator during a public launch in the Harz mountains. In the wake of this event, the politicians allowed only rocket engines, which are not larger as those already legal for sale in fireworks (though an anomalous used fireworks rocket is far more deadly).

There is no technical reason behind it, it is just the result of the "wah-wah! Make me safe!" crowd.

The T2 permit has also nothing to do at all with rocket engines. It is only needed for handling explosives (solid propellants) above a mass limit.

What the explosives law does not cover - bipropellant liquid rocket engines. Like all combustion engines, you would as far as I can understand the laws just need a permit of the technical control group (TÜV), as long as the propellants are not mixed or explosive themselves.

Scale model steam engines are also very mildly regulated, so I think some legal research in the topic could be futile...
 

TSPenguin

The Seeker
Joined
Jan 27, 2008
Messages
4,075
Reaction score
4
Points
63
What the explosives law does not cover - bipropellant liquid rocket engines. Like all combustion engines, you would as far as I can understand the laws just need a permit of the technical control group (TÜV), as long as the propellants are not mixed or explosive themselves.

Cool, but what propellants would fall under that category?
 

Urwumpe

Not funny anymore
Addon Developer
Donator
Joined
Feb 6, 2008
Messages
37,588
Reaction score
2,312
Points
203
Location
Wolfsburg
Preferred Pronouns
Sire
Cool, but what propellants would fall under that category?

Not yet sure, but you can be sure rocket-grade hydrogen peroxide is one of the propellants that are not allowed without T2.

I think compressed air and alcohol ("Spiritus") could go (only a limited fire hazard), not sure on liquid oxygen (High fire hazard) or nitrogen dioxide (toxic, fire-hazard, self-pressurizing).

I think, it would also be worth a try, changing the absurd legislation on rocketry in Germany. Our politicians already managed it too often, that we invented cool technology, and somebody else makes the money, because the politicians need to ensure that all happens according to their rules.
 

RocketMan_Len

Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2008
Messages
149
Reaction score
0
Points
16
Location
Toronto, ON
What is the reason for the limitation on motor size?

Likely for the same reason the BATFE requires permits for motors with more than 62.5g of propellant - it sounded good at the time, and it helps to increase their influence.


-----Posted Added-----


Cool, but what propellants would fall under that category?

Have you considered hybrids? Nitrous Oxide is the oxidizer, and pretty much anything can be the fuel... paraffin wax, paper, even nylon grains have been used successfully.
 

Lunar_Lander

New member
Joined
Oct 21, 2007
Messages
356
Reaction score
2
Points
0
Location
Osnabrück
Would be a bit like the Mythbuster's Confederate rocket where they nitrous oxide and paraffine. In a second episode they exchanged the paraffine with salami. The salami did not but really smooth and the motor exploded some seconds after ignition.

In the booklet of mine is a chart, giving the motor sizes. Everything above D, i.e. E to M is designated "High-Power" and everything bigger would be "Amateur" rocketry. I think in the Mythbusters Episode with the Rocket Chair, they used N class motors. Are these existing?

@TSPenguin: I'll look for the airspace question, but for the first: As far as I understood it, flying is allowed in any open space (except near airfields of course).
 

Star explorer

New member
Joined
May 15, 2008
Messages
377
Reaction score
3
Points
0
Well, explosives ARE toys...


Cuz thats the american way. anywase well i dont want to be mean but im really happy i dont live in germany for that one single reason that rocket engines only go up to D. other than that germanys a nice country
 

RocketMan_Len

Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2008
Messages
149
Reaction score
0
Points
16
Location
Toronto, ON
Would be a bit like the Mythbuster's Confederate rocket where they nitrous oxide and paraffine. In a second episode they exchanged the paraffine with salami. The salami did not but really smooth and the motor exploded some seconds after ignition.

I've always had a problem with that particular Mythbusters installment. Under normal circumstances, if you put a match to salami, will it even BURN? Heck - they lined the core with BP, fer cryin` out loud... is it any wonder that it blew the nozzle??? :rofl:

In the booklet of mine is a chart, giving the motor sizes. Everything above D, i.e. E to M is designated "High-Power" and everything bigger would be "Amateur" rocketry. I think in the Mythbusters Episode with the Rocket Chair, they used N class motors. Are these existing?

Are you talking about the 'Ming Dynasty Astronaut' bit...? I think they actually used a bunch of long-burn J-impulse motors for that.

But to answer your question - yes, N class motors are available... there are even some O class being manufactured.
 
Top