Help with NASSP versions

sw34669

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Happy new year - all the best from Scotland for 2021

I got back into Orbiter over xmas and was stunned to see the development that has gone on for the last decade to NASSP. A personal thank you to all those who have coded panels and simulated systems to give an experience im sure that would bring a warm smile to any NASA veterans. It's been a steep learning curve, I fly so at least i'm used to atmo stuff. The MCC and RTC stuff is amazing but I need a little help (have read all the manuals and I am currently Apollo 11 having just sent the SVIB off like a firework with the automated LOX dump).

1) Versions ..... during initial install I was swamped with the different forks and what needed to be downloaded to give me the newest core MFD's, sounds and scenario files. I may have a hodge podge mix of too many of them. I seem to be missing the apollo 14 stuff mentioned in the quick start guide that suggests watching layzd's MFD land on the moon, I have the latest version of NASSP V8 1598 that I dropped on top of my current install.
My question is, taking a clean orbiter 2016 install, what should I download and install to bring this upto a working contemporary build with all avaiable scenarios MCC RTC etc. There seems to be a sourceforge and github build being updated and pushed. I think I started with V7 and have dumped both of these builds into my orbiter install (V8 1598 last night).

2) MCC - After TLI, Sep, Docking, Extraction things settle down and it seems the new MCC knows that if the moon interface solution thats current is ok it won't correct at that point. There is a Go/Nogo stage that i reach that I don't understand what to do that then appears. If I select proceed on the checklist it then goes into a page of star alignments. This appears to be the move from MCC-1 to 2 i think.

3) Where can I find (related to 1) apollo 14 and any oher micro updates that are not part of the core nassp.

4) I am having some problems with checklists (may be my version stew is causing this). In the scenario file Apollo 11 - before MCC-2 when opened shows the following
RH suit flow off
pwr-off
suit-pwr off
<yellow item> open pamfd remove commander

If i turn the suit flow off and click PRO on the checklist, it jumps to a new list and doesnt move down to por-off or pause at the yellow crew item.

Again, thank you for the hours/weeks/months/years of dev in this, very enjoyable and unforgiving sim. If anyone can help a poor scotman in space.... what do you mean we didnt pack the haggis.

-scott.
 

sw34669

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sw34669

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also 5) what background setup in terms of RCS modes and prog should i have running in TLI coast ? should the computer just be P00d?
 

n72.75

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Hi, and welcome to the forum and NASSP.

Before I get to far into explaining things, I wanted to make sure you'd had a chance to read our installation instructions:


The builds, e.g. 1598 is the latest as of this post, contain everything NASSP related. The only other things you need are Orbiter related (sound, sound graphics client, etc) and are detailed in the installation instructions.
 

sw34669

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Thanks, yes, 3.5 decade IT guy.
The download last night of 1598 doesnt have any of the apollo 14 missions as listed in manuals etc made me think i've got a mix of versions
I may have downloaded 7 first there seems to be a lot of versions on different sites and maybe some old repositories still around
Orbiter/dx9 and dan's new sound all working ok
I seem to be having some issues with MCC I have it uploading pads now (IP socket issue if you dont shut down orbiter if you have to re-load)
I have no MCC sound now (did during and just after launch) and i'm not sure if it's all running correctly now 10 hours into Apollo 11. I get yellow text from MCC but no voice. If I use the voice test option in the MCC tab menu, no sound comes back.
I've had a poke around the RTC mfd and pages of that don't tie in with the manual, although I have the latest version as I downloaded it last night and copied it into my orbiter dir
I've just finished the horizon/star alignment . That requied 12 fingers.
Last question - what's the command if I want to command the AGC to a particular RPY? ... followed by V25E for R1-3 i know that. I've struggled to find a smaller guide around the agc and basics of flying it with the FDAI's. Much of the documentation i've read talks about what the thing is rather than how to use it.
thanks in advance
 

sw34669

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ps - i waited 10 mins and my MCC-1 burn was indeed, scrubbed, but it was just the yellow text I had.
 

Thespacer

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I get yellow text from MCC but no voice. If I use the voice test option in the MCC tab menu, no sound comes back.
That is normal. If you hear MCC voice recordings before and during launch, I believe they are canned recordings, and they only go so far as the boost phase. MCC for the purposes of Orbiter is text only.
I've had a poke around the RTC mfd and pages of that don't tie in with the manual, although I have the latest version as I downloaded it last night and copied it into my orbiter dir
I’ll let Indy respond but my understanding is that the manual is WIP and does not reflect the latest version of the MFD. There may be others who know how to use it, particularly for missions that are not yet supported by MCC (such as Apollo 14).
Last question - what's the command if I want to command the AGC to a particular RPY?
Verb 49. Make sure the DAP has been initialized for the mission (V48 and V46).
I've struggled to find a smaller guide around the agc and basics of flying it with the FDAI's. Much of the documentation i've read talks about what the thing is rather than how to use it.
Once you get used to the checklist MFD, it is quite useful for the “how” piece, coupled with the “what” piece available in documents. If you click the Nav button, you will get to the contents for that checklist, and if you scroll down you will see many specific procedures (eg G&N for the AGC) to accomplish most, if not all, the tasks generally required for a mission. Often, the main checklist flow will call upon those discrete procedures automatically, when the time and conditions are right.
Note that the yellow text does not necessarily refer to something you need to do, but rather might refer to a state of affairs (eg MCC uplink) as a step in the process. In all cases, you need to manually PRO past those steps.
 

n72.75

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Thank you, @Thespacer.

Yes NASSP fully supports Apollo 7 and 8 with support for 5, 9, 10 and 11, virtually complete. Full support for the 'H', and 'J' missions is likely a future release feature.

There's quite a bit of development work going on with the RTCC(real time computing complex)/RTCC MFD/and MCC. @indy91 can tell you more about it if you want to hop on our IRC channel some time. The manual is really out of date at this point just because of how much has been added. Right now the RTCC MFD and the MCC each have their own instance of an RTCC class. The RTCC itself (NASSP's that is), is a C++ replication of the system and routines that ran on NASA IBM360s during the Apollo missions. It has been developed from the limited available documentation and flow charts.


Probably the best two sources for documentation on both the AGC and the Apollo spacecraft systems are to be found here:



These are libraries of documents collected and curated by the team members of the VirtualAGC (which NASSP runs in emulation) Project as well as the NASSP team.


If you're just starting out, Apollo 8 is probably the easiest to start with in terms of work load.

Always happy to see new interest in the project.
 

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figured out run prog 20 which brings up 3 stored vectors. I cant change them using V25E, they just resort back

ie V37E 20E then V25E to edit all 3 rpy thenhit the 2 switches (CMC+auto) followed by PRO on computer

cant seem to work out how to store those FDAI vectors for the commanded move to them :)
 

sw34669

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right thanks chaps yes have been through the checklists and they are great for running ad as well as mission lists. i'm 11 mission hours and 1,000,000,000,000 actual hours in since xmas so i've done well to get this far.
This is what i meant about apollo 14 and the filled out scenarios : http://nassp.sourceforge.net/wiki/LM_landing_checklist_(Quickstart)
..... key line on page : Start the "Apollo 14 - LM final approach" scenario in the "Project Apollo - NASSP\Quickstart Missions\Apollo 14" folder. (I dont have that folder)
My OCD may require me to help you with documentation sheer magic flying 1960's tech in space
360s just before my time but have coded in machine code, assembler, fortran, pascal, of cource c. I worked at Sun for 20y :)
 
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n72.75

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Regarding our Sourceforge Wiki, we lost the ability to edit or add new users circa 2016. That particular page was last updated in 2007 and is probably related to version 6?.
This page was last modified on 12 May 2007, at 10:39.
Version 6 didn't include the AGC emulation or anything near the level of system simulation we have now, think more on the game side, less on the simulator side.
Unfortunately, the Wiki is one of the first things that comes up when you google NASSP. It's plagued us for a while.
 

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ripping through helium now like a mad man but have commanded-att working now. smashing time for bed.
 

sw34669

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Regarding our Sourceforge Wiki, we lost the ability to edit or add new users circa 2016. That particular page was last updated in 2007 and is probably related to version 6?.

Version 6 didn't include the AGC emulation or anything near the level of system simulation we have now, think more on the game side, less on the simulator side.
Unfortunately, the Wiki is one of the first things that comes up when you google NASSP. It's plagued us for a while.
ah that explains a lot. thanks for the info, very helpful. I've just put 11 into her rotisary chicken mode and i'm really off to bed this time. I will stick with 8beta.
 

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figured out run prog 20 which brings up 3 stored vectors. I cant change them using V25E, they just resort back

ie V37E 20E then V25E to edit all 3 rpy thenhit the 2 switches (CMC+auto) followed by PRO on computer

cant seem to work out how to store those FDAI vectors for the commanded move to them
If you are still in TLI coast, then this program will not accomplish much: it is used for rendezvous or tracking (and is available in both the CSM and the LM). As far as I know, it calls upon the state vector of the “other” vehicle (ie if you run it in the CSM, then it will call up the SV of the LM), to give you an attitude (RPY) to “fly to.” The default attitude is to move the CSM to a position where the optics can automatically track the LM (the so-called “preferred“ attitude). The other option is an attitude that allows you to see the LM through the COAS cross-hairs (along the X axis, in other words), and that is enabled - while in P20 - by selecting V77), this mode is useful towards the end of the rendezvous when the LM is in visual range. If the LM is still attached to the CSM, then the RPY angles will be meaningless. Once the two spacecraft separate, and they have an accurate state vector of each other, then P20 becomes useful.

Much of the information above is gleaned from real world documents, most if not all of which are available at the first link N72.75 provided. If you are doing Apollo 11, then I particularly recommend the Apollo 11 “Operations Checklist” for CSM activities. It is quite stunning how faithful NASSP is, in comparison to real world procedures, and therefore there is no better resource. In the meantime, the team here has been very helpful to me to address gaps in knowledge.
 

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Morning !
Thanks for the work through. I understand now the relationship between CSM and LM SV's. I was at the "orient the ship to PY 0900,000" just before PTC roasting phase so was looking as to how (when i'm not spending hours with that damn optics unit) I move the ship. Verbs 46 48 and 49 and the DAP worked perfectly after hitting PRO twice. Really makes you laugh when we, today, can just hit prograde / retrograde or +/1 and it's all done.

I downloaded "the other apollo sim" ... although graphically good, I felt dirty in having to fire up lunartransfermfd et al. Could almost hear NASA saying "dont you dare". Once I had NASSP setup and working, to watch a dark CM -2h to full orbit with an Ecc of 0.0001 blew me away. 1960's code, if it's good enough for NASA and Microsoft, it's good enough for us. This is not a game of minecraft, it's mindcraft.

Things/larger gothas I noticed whilst going through 11 (btw I dont want to fly Apollo 14 i'd just noticed that I seemed to missing some scenario files).

1) Checklist MFD mixes ways to input a value and this can be confusing. 1 items so far in 11 was missing the V25E
i) Issues yellow text to input 5 digits in one/all of R123, does a V25/4/3/2/1E and you type the digits and press PRO on checklist
ii) Only wants 1-4 digits for R1 and the next item in the checklist will put the other digits in and press enter (star horizon checklist has this ABCDE for LM/CSM)
I ended up putting 10000 in form CSM+LM instead of just 1 and that borked the XXXX that then got lost

2) PRO button on computer same name as PRO button on checklist - for new users this took me a while to work out which PRO was needed when reading guides etc

3) If you save a scanario and dont exit out of Orbiter the port for the RTC/mcc is still there and stops uplinks. Restarting Oribter works well.

4) Automating checklists . There are settings in Extras / vessel settings that have auto checklist and run slowly for demo. If you dont select the slow demo option, things dont get pressed.

5) All the yellow user action items in the checklists on-board could do with an aide memoire document for new users as to the context - again small thing that needs others in the community to help with, given the huge huge dev effort this has had for free. Mind blowing piece of work shows a love of the history you are preserving here.

Anyway, big day for you all tomorrow my wife is US so we will be watching procedings whilst eating deviled eggs and other such "horrors of the south".

All the best and thanks for the 'guidance', if you excuse the pun !

Ahhhhhhhh - thats better, "the constellation Urine" ! Is there a simulation of eah mission crews eating habbits :)
1611077047254.png
 
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1) Checklist MFD mixes ways to input a value and this can be confusing. 1 items so far in 11 was missing the V25E
i) Issues yellow text to input 5 digits in one/all of R123, does a V25/4/3/2/1E and you type the digits and press PRO on checklist
ii) Only wants 1-4 digits for R1 and the next item in the checklist will put the other digits in and press enter (star horizon checklist has this ABCDE for LM/CSM)
I ended up putting 10000 in form CSM+LM instead of just 1 and that borked the XXXX that then got lost
I think I understand your issue here, and it’s probably something I (and others) experienced while new to the sim. I’m blown away by the effort put into the checklist MFD and it is great when you know what to expect from it (and it’s limitations). I supplement it with real world checklists, for example those in the Apollo 11 Ops Checklist. There are sometimes minor inaccuracies in checklist MFD that are inevitable, or they otherwise abridge certain sub-steps, in the assumption the user has knowledge how to get to the desired endstate (eg a direction to update Registers 1 and 2 only might assume you know that V24 accomplishes that, or V21E followed by V22E). One of the documents I always have close at hand is the list of Verbs and Nouns applicable to the CMC/LGC software used in the specific mission (yes, they vary based on which software and which Apollo mission is flown, although NASSP does not yet have a full catalogue of software); that way if the checklist MFD tells me to do a V66, I know that is so that the SV update that MCC just passed along should be inserted into the CMC’s “other vehicle” (ie, LM) slot, when the LM is still attached to the CSM (after all, they will both be identical until they undock). I would therefore recommend getting acquainted with specific Verbs and Nouns to facilitate your understanding and your enjoyment, particularly as the more commonly used Verbs keep coming up again and again in different programs (eg V16 is the “ real-time monitor” action code: V16 N20 monitors ICDU angles, V16 N36 monitors the CMC clock; and so on). You’ve already picked up on V25 and its importance.
3) If you save a scanario and dont exit out of Orbiter the port for the RTC/mcc is still there and stops uplinks. Restarting Oribter works well.
I think this is a known issue, and you’ve identified the fix.


I also recommend obtaining the real flight plans (Apollo 11’s is freely available online). They help contextualize individual steps in the checklist MFD and understand where things happen in the context of the real mission
 

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Thank you sw34669, that is a bunch of good feedback. I think a lot of the inconsistencies with the Checklist MFD come from the fact that multiple people have worked on the checklists over the years and they all have done it in a slightly different way, especially with the DSKY inputs. We can do a better job with that, for sure. And of course when some update that is done to systems or switches, all the checklists need updates as well. A while ago I changed the high gain antenna pitch and yaw rotary switches so that they have 16 switch positions instead of 9(?) as before. So I still need to go through all the checklists and update the switch positions for that. So watch out for wrong HGA directions in the checklist...

3) If you save a scanario and dont exit out of Orbiter the port for the RTC/mcc is still there and stops uplinks. Restarting Oribter works well.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by that. Can you explain that a bit more?
 

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Thank you sw34669, that is a bunch of good feedback. I think a lot of the inconsistencies with the Checklist MFD come from the fact that multiple people have worked on the checklists over the years and they all have done it in a slightly different way, especially with the DSKY inputs. We can do a better job with that, for sure. And of course when some update that is done to systems or switches, all the checklists need updates as well. A while ago I changed the high gain antenna pitch and yaw rotary switches so that they have 16 switch positions instead of 9(?) as before. So I still need to go through all the checklists and update the switch positions for that. So watch out for wrong HGA directions in the checklist...



I'm not quite sure what you mean by that. Can you explain that a bit more?
Indy thanks - the issue I had is with the sockets remaining open if I save and drop out to the main orbiter menu. If I do not restart Orbiter and reload an apollo mission I get comms errors at the bottom left of the screen. It's an open socket thing I suspect to MCC+RTC. Really loving your work though.

I think there is something wrong on my setup as when I look around the RTC MFD, 11 hours into Apollo 11 (with MCC selected -2h before launch), i'm missing pads, TV screens are empty and it looks like it's not retaining info thats been pumped into it. Also it says telemetary is disabled, not sure what that refers to and my mission master table was disabled and empty. Nothing I click on in the RTC MFD looks filled out and i've had all the uploads work and PADs that have been sent to me since launch. My MCC-1 burn was scrubbed and I checked using LunarTransferMFD my solution was good for a 50km approach to the moon.

I downloaded the latest NASSP V8 beta a few days ago and I dont know if changing versions of Mcc/RTC mid mission may have borked something.

How would I check 1) what version of RTC/MCC i'm running and 2) What should I look to in RTC to see if "indy, I think we have a problem" :)

Your help is very much appreciated. I'm just about to go into the first sleep of my A11 mission. I've never seen so much detail simulated, right down to alkaline fuel cell to by-product H2O tanks to bladder to urine to space.

regards,
-scott.
 

sw34669

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I think I understand your issue here, and it’s probably something I (and others) experienced while new to the sim. I’m blown away by the effort put into the checklist MFD and it is great when you know what to expect from it (and it’s limitations). I supplement it with real world checklists, for example those in the Apollo 11 Ops Checklist. There are sometimes minor inaccuracies in checklist MFD that are inevitable, or they otherwise abridge certain sub-steps, in the assumption the user has knowledge how to get to the desired endstate (eg a direction to update Registers 1 and 2 only might assume you know that V24 accomplishes that, or V21E followed by V22E). One of the documents I always have close at hand is the list of Verbs and Nouns applicable to the CMC/LGC software used in the specific mission (yes, they vary based on which software and which Apollo mission is flown, although NASSP does not yet have a full catalogue of software); that way if the checklist MFD tells me to do a V66, I know that is so that the SV update that MCC just passed along should be inserted into the CMC’s “other vehicle” (ie, LM) slot, when the LM is still attached to the CSM (after all, they will both be identical until they undock). I would therefore recommend getting acquainted with specific Verbs and Nouns to facilitate your understanding and your enjoyment, particularly as the more commonly used Verbs keep coming up again and again in different programs (eg V16 is the “ real-time monitor” action code: V16 N20 monitors ICDU angles, V16 N36 monitors the CMC clock; and so on). You’ve already picked up on V25 and its importance.

I think this is a known issue, and you’ve identified the fix.


I also recommend obtaining the real flight plans (Apollo 11’s is freely available online). They help contextualize individual steps in the checklist MFD and understand where things happen in the context of the real mission
thanks
i downloaded them now
also watched a good youtube vid on verbs nouns and programs - reminds me of my old sinclair ZX81
Not sure if the actual docking differential is also simulated as I remember they got this off the inside of the tunnel prior to detach
There's a funny vid of them getting the docking probe and drogue out in A11 and asking MCC to get into the LM early, obv cramped for 3 days wanting a bit more space
I always wondered what the heck they did with those 2 massive and heavy things. The transcripts are great it's the constant background griping about stuff (optics in fiddly box, lack of storage space, my feet are cold, dont turn the heat up i'm hot already).
Anyway thanks for the help and advice, appreciated.
-scott.
 
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